World Hijab Day

[Marzipanface]

AIBU to feel uncomfortable with this day and also really irritated at the lack of discussion over this event from a feminist perspective. There seems to be a wholesale silence from the Feminist blogs and papers I subscribe to, and I can't find any discussion on here. No-one wants to talk to about it.

Just that really.

It is not for a believing man or a believing woman to say anything further or to disobey (Quran 33:36)

Indeed.

From this follows the conundrum about whether you can be still be a 'proper muslim' and not follow the above, when being Muslim is defined as 'believing in Allah and submitting to his will'.

Islam governs not just individual behaviour, but also lays down rules for how society should operate and organise.

In Islam women have a moral obligation to cover to guard against immoral behaviour and banish impure thoughts between the sexes, which otherwise will lead to wider societal problems and family breakdown. Hence the examples of enforced covering, whether that be state sanctioned, peer or familial pressure.

"No. I'm saying that is the exact same logic victim blamers use to take the focus off predatory men and put it on the behaviour of women. So it makes them feel a hell of a lot more shit when they do get raped."

No, you are doing it again - stop being so patronising telling me what I'm saying and showing me the error of my thinking. If I decide to cover up or try to blend in a country where I know the men often act like shit to women rather than insisting on walking down the street in a bikini to prove a point - that is not victim blaming or excusing their behaviour. It's me trying to not to draw attention to myself and get assaulted or raped - that is the reality for some women.

I really don't understand your point and why you keep banging on.

'The world .... Days' are an awareness building Excersize. Their purpose is to make people aware, not to take a choice away.

January, if a jewish lady asked me to wear her headwear in solidarity then i would. I dont think a jewish lady would as me to wear the jewish man's headwear.

I think it was pointed out upthread that behind this particular 'day' is a clothing shop or manufacturer.

Why would we have a World Hijab Day? I want nothing to do with hijabs unless we are getting rid of them. I am with Caitlin Moran.

Islam governs not just individual behaviour, but also lays down rules for how society should operate and organise.

So does Christianity. Many of these rules are contrary to the democratic law of broadly secular countries and modern equality legislation. The Bible tells wives to 'submit to their husbands' but if I"m not in the mood, I'm not in the mood. To force me to submit would be rape. The Bible has plenty to say on homosexuality, but most people in Britain accept that discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation is illegal.

The churches have had a hard time reconciling themselves to changing attitudes. They have had to adapt. They are still having a hard time wiht this today and are having to adapt. Relgious beliefs cannot stay fixed forever, or they will become like a Velvet Elvis (a very good read).

If a woman was fully covered and wearing a hijab and she is assaulted, she is not responsible for the assault.

If a woman is wearing a bikini and is assaulted, she is not responsibke for the assault.

Both women should have the choice to wear what they want. There are women who are forced to wear the hijab in afghanistan, iran and maybe dome in the UK. That does not mean that the hijab is a symbol for oppression. There are thousands and thousands of women in UK and Europe and afar who are forced every night to work the streets in short dresses and high heels. That does not mean that the short dress is a symbol for oppression.

To single out the hijab as a symbol for oppression, whilst keeping the short dress and high heels is a crazy double standard.

"whether you can be still be a 'proper muslim' and not follow the above, when being Muslim is defined as 'believing in Allah and submitting to his will'"

Just like Christians and Jews don't have to do every single thing commanded to their ancestors from several thousands of years ago, many Muslims don't feel the need to dress like their desert-dwelling ancestors of the year 600 AD.

It is not just about clothing, either. Islam has detailed instructions about exactly how to wash hands, feet, draw water into nose etc. Many Muslims have now abandoned these rituals in the age of daily showers and readily available running water.

There are people who follow every letter of their holy book, and those are called "fundamentalists" - i.e. they have a strict belief in the literal interpretation of their holy texts. There there are others who are still devout believers, but who allow themselves to decide whether their lives in the year 2016 has to look exactly like the people who wrote those texts many centuries ago. In Islam as in other religions.

I really don't understand your point and why you keep banging on.

Who is banging on exactly?

This is a thread about celebrating the hijab. Many people here have said that they feel it's inappropriate. You are trying to pretend that there is a positive side to it, with your "but I can see it makes women feel that they should be covering up and making themselves invisible to feel safer". This is part of the reason why people put pressure on women to cover up, and is used as a justification by predatory men to prey on women who do not conform. Yes, by Western men too. Therefore it is not in any sense a plus point or something to be celebrated.

I will express myself in any way I see fit, but thanks all the same for your suggestions.

Soso thank you.

I understand the awareness building, I also read on the original erbsite that it offered an opportunity to walk in someone else's shoes.

So, as Muslim and non-Muslim men are unlikely to ever walk these shoes, do you agree it would make as much sense for them as non Muslim women to experience wearing a hijab once a year?

It is a sign of opression and misogyny for many women. Just ask a woman in a country with no choice.

Who is forced to wear short skirts? Do you mean prostitutes? You do get prostitutes who wear the hijab you know. They do exist in Saudi, Afghanistan, Iran..

Religious beliefs cannot stay fixed forever

When those beliefs stem from the supposedly authentic words of Allah / God himself, how do you propose to change them when His words cannot be altered as the Quran is for all time and all places ?

Reformists are trying to 're-interpret them' but really not making any headway. In fact as we've seen its more 'authentic and literalist Islam' that is taking over.

My relatives, who know more about such things, say that tbere is no progressive movement as such in Islam.

'Because god says so' trumps all arguments and silences all questions.

Soso, have you read the thread? There was a discussion about high heels upthread.

Originalmavis, high heels and skimpy short dresses are also a very real sign of oppression and misogyny for many women.

Are you seriously suggesting that women are forced into hijabs but not into short skirts and high heels. Are you saying there is a difference between the hijab wearing prostitute and the short skirt wearing prostitute? Does that make the hijab and skirt the real oppressor or the pimps and human traffikers who think they own the women the real oppressors?

I find it very sad how women can attack women for the choosing what they wear, what religion they follow and how they live their lives, whilst banging on about freedom of choice in the same breath.

Many Muslims have now abandoned these rituals in the age of daily showers and readily available running water

Even immediately after showering one must perform the ritual of wudu / wuzu and follow the detailed instructions on washing before offering prayers or handling the Quran.

Bathing rituals too must be adhered to e.g. wrt to hair removal.

There there are others who are still devout believers, but who allow themselves to decide whether their lives in the year 2016 has to look exactly like the people who wrote those texts many centuries ago. In Islam as in other religions

Indeed and good luck to them.

The problem however is their fundamentalist Islamic brethren who make convincing arguments using Islamic texts pointing out the non-Islamic nature of their ways. It's why so many women & men have returned to such conservative practices.

Once these literalists reach a critical mass they can start imposing Allah's will on the non-conformists by force, or through societal pressure. It's hard to resist & argue back convincingly when the edicts are steeped in Holy revelations and backed by divine authority.

"Reformists are trying to 're-interpret them' but really not making any headway."

The main difference between Christianity and Islam is that the latter is purposefully non-centralised. Quran says in many places that everyone's understanding of Islam is for themselves, and that it is all between the believer and his God. That is, Muslims don't have to wait for "reformists" to tell them how to interpret the Quran. Yes, many are listening to imams or whatever but unlike Catholics having to listen to their Pope, Muslims have no such obligation and are free to choose their way.

"In fact as we've seen its more 'authentic and literalist Islam' that is taking over."

A very small minority is more radicalised, yes. That doesn't mean radical Islam is taking over 1.6 Muslims of the world. It still isn't good of course because those few nut jobs can cause a lot of problems for the rest of us.

"Even immediately after showering one must perform the ritual of wudu / wuzu and follow the detailed instructions on washing before offering prayers or handling the Quran. Bathing rituals too must be adhered to e.g. wrt to hair removal."

"Must perform"? As I said, many Muslims are not fundamentalists and don't follow such strict literal interpretation of holy texts. Certainly most Muslims I know have come to the conclusion that they are clean enough after a shower and many hand washes through the day to pray & handle the Quran without having to pour water over their hands up to the elbow etc.

Are you seriously suggesting that women are forced into hijabs but not into short skirts and high heels

The hijab came about as a religious command to women to protect men from the effects on them of seeing a woman's hair. In the West we also used to cover our hair, but we don't tend to any more.

Prostitutes are told what to wear, because of this same sexist idea, that women who don't cover themselves appropriately are fair game for predatory men as they are immodest. Pimps and traffickers order the women to wear skimpy clothes purely in order to tempt men.

They are two sides of the same coin.

If you want to make the construction that high heels are also a sexist symbol of women's oppression, I accept that they can be seen that way, so no argument there. But this isn't what the thread is about, is it? No one is saying we should celebrate the high heel here.

And short skirts are far more comfortable in many ways than other clothing and many women wear them primarily because they like to be less constricted by their clothing. So not the same thing.

As people have said, I would be fully in favour of Wear Whatever You Like Day on which you would obviously be free to wear the hijab if you wanted to.

"You are trying to pretend that there is a positive side to it, with your "but I can see it makes women feel that they should be covering up and making themselves invisible to feel safer". This is part of the reason why people put pressure on women to cover up, and is used as a justification by predatory men to prey on women who do not conform. Yes, by Western men too. Therefore it is not in any sense a plus point or something to be celebrated. "

You really can't help yourself - can you? That is not me putting a positive spin on hijab. It's a sad indictment of what these women have to dea with. What - pointing out that some women in the world might feel safer covering themselves because they fear what might happen to them if they do otherwise? You read my comments on this as "celebrating the hijab" or putting a "positive spin on it"? That makes me a rape apologist?

Are you joking or just being deliberately obtuse.

"It's me trying to not to draw attention to myself and get assaulted or raped - that is the reality for some women."

Do you live in England? You do know that you can report assault and rape in confidence?

I draw attention to myself every day. I like to wear nice clothes, smell nice, look nice, say intelligent things, discuss current affairs, discuss rugby, discuss politics, discuss everything relevant or irrelevant - while wearing a tight skirt, a bra (a push up one) and a tight shirt.

Why the fuck would I bother speaking if I'm going to be ignored? I have no fear whatsoever of being assaulted or raped. I live in a civilised society. I suspect the wider society would protect me were some renegade to attack me for having my ankles on display.

"short skirts are far more comfortable in many ways than other clothing and many women wear them primarily because they like to be less constricted by their clothing. So not the same thing."

Yes, i sometimes wear a short loose skirt for sport because it is comfortable and practical. I doubt girls going out in micro skirts with 6 inch heels in the miiddle of winter with no coat - do it because of comfort.

Bambam - "some women in the world might feel safer covering themselves because they fear what might happen to them if they do otherwise?"

They should not have to live in fear in the West. That is the point.

There's only one obtuse person here, and it isn't me. The thread is about celebrating the hijab and the "millions of Muslim women choosing to live a life of modesty". That is what World Hijab Day is promoted as. So all the discussion here re the hijab is going to be interpreted in the light of that, isn't it? Including you giving positive reasons for it.

I can't be bothered arguing with you any more nor do I care one iota how you think I ought to express myself in an argument.

I can assure you I'm not joking.