World Hijab Day

[Marzipanface]

AIBU to feel uncomfortable with this day and also really irritated at the lack of discussion over this event from a feminist perspective. There seems to be a wholesale silence from the Feminist blogs and papers I subscribe to, and I can't find any discussion on here. No-one wants to talk to about it.

Just that really.

I really am furious Marzipan . I have very little interaction with Muslim people, simply because of the area in which I live and my very first post was to say that I didn't know how/if/whether to approach a woman who's facial expressions I couldn't see because I was uncertain as to whether my approach would be welcome or not. I admitted my ignorance offered apologies if I was offending anyone, but made it clear that I wanted to learn and understand the views from both or all sides. But from branleuse post, it would seem that the whole subject is off limits, not to be discussed, or at any rate, not by non Muslims. People like branleuse perpetuate the division between cultures by squeaking "racism " whenever the conversation isn't going the way they would prefer. My closest friend is Jewish. I am not. But I have been invited to bar mitzvahs and bat mitzvahs where I've been the only gentile there. I have been encouraged to ask questions about the Jewish religion and have learnt so much from the experiences I have had. I'm sure that, at some point I may have inadvertently asked awkward questions, but I've never been made to feel uncomfortable or unwelcome because of it. The Jewish people that I've met are only to happy to explain the significance of their traditionstuff and rituals. How are non Muslims supposed to learn, understand and accept a growing religion in this country if dimwitshe like branleuse shut the discussion down. Fucking livid now. (Sorry for the rant).

And I've never said the word fuck on Mumsnet before either so that shows how livid I am

YoungGirl, I think you have it spot on that the expectation of covering carries with it the inference that uncovered = immodest.

Or more explicitly, uncovered = transgressor and therefore eligible for punishment by any man.

At least, this is the dynamic I've seen in some (misogynistic, non-muslim) countries. Where traditional clothing was extremely revealing - almost nudity - and poverty meant that Western-style clothes were often quite holey and not covering.

But in towns, Western clothing was expected to be 1950s: jeans were a bit daring, mini-skirts outrageous. And the same men who at the family home in the rural area sat next to almost naked women without molesting them, felt entitled to sexually assault women wearing mini-skirts when living in town - "because they were sluts".

It was very, very clearly not about sexual desire. It's about control and punishment.

Who wanted to try a Hijab? Got a scarf, and ideally a snood thingy and a couple of pins? Right, start off by turning the heating up to 40c, or maybe 45C. That's a summers day here.
Then pull all your hair back into a bun, put the snood over to pull any fringe back off your face, and hide any whisps of hair. Then put the scarf over the top, making sure it goes round your neck, and pin in place. Warm yet??? Just try walking about, remembering in much of the ME you will also be wearing dark clothes with cover you from collar bone to wrist to ankle. Have a look left and right. Try looking over your shoulder. Now imaging having extra fabric so just your eyes are exposed. Maybe try and put a balaclava on. How much vision have you lost???
I am mightly thankful that as an infidel, I do not need to cover my head in these temperatures.
I have massive sympathy for those who are FORCED to cover up in the heat, and while it is great for sand protection, I can thing of preferable materials, colours and styles to achieve sand protection.

Where it is free choice (and those without free choice are unlikely to be able to access sites such as mumsnet), I have no issue. Where it is enforced by the men, I have issues.

You only have to travel as a western or uncovered, unaccompanied woman in some other countries (some majority Muslim) so see which countries women are more free and more safe in. In that respect, The UK has a lot going for it. I spent some time in Turkey when I was younger and experienced the mob groping as was done in Cologne, along with frequent blatant sexual assaults and harrasement. We actually came to see it as normal and expect it - no wonder women feel safer covering up. i do think a big part of covering up is to protect them perhaps, rather than just keep them under the thumb.

I found Bahrain to be the best country, possibly because if a huge nationalisation pilgrims that encouraged Bahrainis to have real jobs like taxi drivers instead of handout government positions of 'partners' in western firms.

I rarely saw nationals in the UAE, and the ones I met through business would shake my hand, unlike the Saudis who would not let me sit at the table (hugely ironic, if you knew what my job was).

N Africa was often, frankly, terrifying. Egypt in particular was horrible to travel through as a western woman.

In all of those countries, I dressed modestly, usually wearing a scarf.

I didn't suggest local women tried on my shorts the better to understand my culture though.

programmes not pilgrims. Sorry. Posting from a train. I'll leave it for now.

And every day when I drive back from my sons' school I see all those teenagers first at the secondary school I pass heads covered- some with very colourful covers and very high kind of top thing, others very black and modest, many with skirts to the floor (and good [ I think] of the school of course to tolerate that and at least they are being educated with boys) and then I drive on and I pass the nearest primary school to the house with some women in the full burka outfit and so many with the head covering. It is as if I have moved back to medieval times without moving house.

However I am in favour of letting people wear what they want and indeed I would encourage the Government to allow more public nudity too. So let us talk about it but not ban anything other than the real criminal stuff like honour kiling. Our local paper also reports girls in the loos at school for 20 minutes because they have been cut and every act of urination is painful. No one is just about ever caught for that (and the incidence of it is 97% in Egypt for example even though in theory banned - so may be all those Egyptian gropers of Western women just want to feel what a real clitoris is like).

Just to let Branleuse know that my concern for Muslim women being obliged to cover up dates back a good 30 years. I thought then that it wasn't my place to tell them what to do but that they'd find feminism on their own in the decades to come. Oh the innocence of youth. Now we have ISIS and the exporting of Wahabi Islam to countries where women did not usually cover their hair.

Oh, and I've known Muslim women who don't cover their hair. Had tea and cakes with one a few months back.

Jeepers - I'm learning loads here today.

www.al-islam.org/hijab-muslim-womens-dress-islamic-or-cultural-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi/common-questions-about-hijab-and#2-shaking-hands

What does mahram mean?

doh - ok - mahram is a male family member so to speak

How the fuck can someone observing hijab conduct business in an office environment? It's nigh on impossible!
Imagine having to go to an interview.

Head down. Can't shake hands.

Well, I never!

Because shaking hands with the interviewer is surely inviting him/her to be enticed!

Gosh - I'm getting angrier the more I read. backs away from laptop

MistressMia I agree my point was earlier in the thread that being critical of islam and the koran is not the same as being critical of the bible because the word is directly from god (if you believe)

Actually - I can't sit on my hands. note to self - buy long robe to keep fingers away from keyboard

"This hijab of eyes is similar to the teaching of Jesus where he says, “You have heard that it was said by them of old time, you shall not commit adultery. But I say unto you, That whosoever looks on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.”1 So if you see a Muslim casting his/her eyes downwards when he/she is talking to a member of opposite sex, this should not be considered as rude or an indication of lack of confidence — he/she is just abiding by the Qur’anic as well as Biblical teaching."

Basically, Jesus said that if you lust after a woman, then you've already committed adultery in your heart. Note - he said 'lust after' not LOOK AT.

The bould Allah went a step further though and said - YE SHALL PREVENT YOURSELVES FROM COMMITTING ADULTERY IN YOUR HEART BY COVERING THE WOMENZ UP. PROBLEM SOLVED.

Good Jesus.

Expecting a swift banning now - at least it eliminates need for long robe haha

i do think a big part of covering up is to protect them perhaps, rather than just keep them under the thumb.

Do you not think that in itself is wrong? It's kind of saying that they're asking for it, if they don't. It's the same logic rape apologists and victim blamers use. Just think about it.

i do think a big part of covering up is to protect them perhaps, rather than just keep them under the thumb

Protecting them from what though? Predatory men? What's wrong with this picture?

And FYI, it doesn't always protect them, trust me.

All religion is utterly ridiculous. If there really was a god, do people honestly believe that he'd care about all this stuff?

It's like playing dressing up every tribe has to have its 'uniform' eh?

bambabini

I just want to clarify that it doesn't necessarily make you a rape apologist or victim blamer, you're just using their dodgy logic, that they have an interest in people believing. But it's not helpful to focus on the women's behaviour rather than the predatory men, is it?

hiddenhome2 - I completely agree that all religion is mad.

From what I can see - someone (was it the Lord?) sent down the ten commandments to someone (Abraham?). (Christianity)
Then, Allah (or God/The Lord) seemed to think that nobody was listening, so he decided that he'd send Muhammad to man-splain it in detail. (Islam)

Heh Heh

I have muslim family and friends who never wear a hijab unless for religious occasions or when they go to a mosque

I lived in a muslim country very very few women wore hijabs apart from older ladies and a friend (who often visited family in france) was shocked at how many muslim women and girls did here and how many wore niqabs

Upon some further combing of the bible googling it appears that Moses got the ten commandments.
Who was Abraham then?

Abraham was one of the patriarchs (along with Isaac and Jacob) and are key figures in the development of Judaism.

Jesus was Jewish, hailed as the Messiah, and founded Christianity. (Jews do not think he was the Messiah).

NB Regarding what Orthodox Jewish women wear, Orthodox Jewish men also have to abide by a strict dress code. In fact, Chassidic men have even less choice of clothes than the women do.

This thread shows how little people really know but how much they assume about why women wear hijab. It's not for men, that's the biggest misconception people have. And no, covering up for modesty is not unacceptable and seeing the way people dress in the UK and other countries I think a bit more clothing wouldn't harm anyone.

World Hijab Day is a day to raise awareness against all the prejudices that exist against Muslims and especially the notion that Muslim women are some bunch of poor oppressed beings that need saving. Nonsense.