To not understand the logic for transgender baptism

[ReallyTired]

I don't understand why someone would want to be baptised twice, unless they see their first baptism as unsound. I know there are people who don't recongise infant baptism and are baptised by full immersion as an adult. Why would someone want to be re baptised because they have changed sex? They still have the same soul and are the same person.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-35441852

Surely there is one baptism for the remission of sins. The gender of that person is irrelevant. Baptism is not a naming ceremony, but a sacrement of the church. It's formally joining the church and surely you can only do that once. A transgender person can be baptised like anyone else, if they have not been baptised before.

I am in favour of a service of blessing for a transgender person, but theologically you can't be baptised twice.

You're begging the question four.

What do you think gender is four?

A person who believes in gender and as a result believes they are transgender does not confirm gender exists. All it confirms is that this person believes in gender and this person also believes they are the wrong gender and therefore believe they are transgender.

The simplest way to explain it is that sex is between your legs and gender is between your ears. Your gender is just how you want people to perceive you as whether it's male, female or neither

So its what people who arent special snowflakes refer to as their personality then?

That might be the simplest way but it's wrong.

You are a person who wants to inhabit the gender role typically imposed on the sex to which you do not belong. That's fine, and is your right. I don't wish you harm, or unhappiness, or loss of opportunity because of it. However it doesn't prove the existence of gender as anything other than socially constructed, arbitrary behaviour expectations.

But how would you describe make and female genders four. I understand that gender is a brain thing but no one has ever been able to adequately explain it to me. Maybe you have the key?

queen I could sit here forever trying to explain what male and female are but I can't, I can only explain feeling male/ being transgender because it's the only one I have experienced. Feeling male for me is being two people and only wanting to be one of them (male) but being forced to be the other (female) buy everyone who knows me or doesn't but sees me and immediately judges and labels me ^

not really your question but the best I can do^

The minute some feminist realise that 1. no one is trying to take away their rights or 2. not everything with a penis/used to have one is a possible rapist 3. stop fear mongering over 1 and 2 and 4. their rights don't trump anyone else's just because there are more of them, the world will be a better place.

Of course this thread has decended into 'but gender is just a social construct, so trans is bullshit', as I feared was the whole underlying point. Gender is real - most people are ok with that. It's not a case of saying 'only boys can do this and girls can do that', there's a whole psychology behind it. We're still animals at heart, we have not evolved into genderless, asexual beings. It may be a social construct, but so is respecting other people. That means accepting those who feel they were born in the wrong body, without taking personal offense, or making up nonsense about them doing to to take over you 'special place', or whatever the latest feminist buzzword is.

I need to do what the saner posters on here do, and hide all the trans threads.....

A lot of people i have seen be rebaptised were people who felt they had 'sinned' (often this was alcoholism) and 'overcome' (through jesus' help) and thr baptism was a 'spiritual rebirth'. That doesnt fit with church theology but it is the type of ritual people have used for thousands of years to signal rebirth as a new person. I still think jesus would be fine with it (realises op did not ask this)

MrsGentlyBenevolent - I don't think that all men are rapists because they have penises but I do think that way more violent and sexual crimes are committed by men than women I also think that most men are bigger and stronger than most women
I also believe that just because a person thinks they are a woman but are biologically male that doesn't give them the right to enter women's safe spaces such as refuges and jail cells. I also think that biological women have the right to compete in sports - be it the Olympics or the local netball team - without biological males using their physical advantage.
I don't think this is scaremongering - these changes are racing ahead into guidelines and llegislation. Doesn't this cause you any concern?

No it doesn't, scalliondays. I don't believe men who are happy in themselves would go out of their way to have a sex change to invade sports events, refuges and to go to jail. The very idea sounds bloody stupid and the sort of things only people who are so caught up in their paranoia would believe. Just because men are more likely to commit sex crimes, doesn't mean they will put on a dress to do so. I'm sure similar nonsense was thought of many years ago - 'can't let gay men share space/join the army with straights, who knows what they will try and do'. You'd think we'd moved on from those times, but there are so many small minded, bigoted and badly reasoned views on here about transgenderism, that it's obviously not the case. The fact so many women actually believe this idea that men would go out of their way to invade 'safe spaces' in such a manner astounds me, I cannot tell if you (in the plural) have too much time on your hands to over think such stuff, or than you have some severe anxiety levels.

Oh ok if we are veering off into the whole trans thing. . .

Mrsgently, i think perhaps you are thinking about normal nice everyday people that we see around us, male, female, transgender. Now, for example, think about a predatory man in prison for life for multiple assaults on women. Where would he rather serve his life sentence do you think? Male or female prison? And why? Now imagine what he has to do to 'become female'. At present, it takes some time/effort/medication/possible surgery. Now what about if all he had to do was say he was a woman?

I'm not at all an anxious person but I'd like to be able to send my dd off swimming safe in the knowledge that if an obvious man is in the women's changing room then the staff would be able to redirect him somewhere more appropriate which I don't believe is currently the case if he says he feels like a woman.
There is also a report (can't link it but I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will) in which a British prison governor states that he thinks there are many men in prison likely to claim transgender status for disingenuous reasons. Not everyone who claims to be transgender has a lovely fluffy soul - that can be seen by the threats on social media towards women and even transgender people who disagree with trans activists.

It was already into 'the whole trans thing'. And in the scenario you explained, do your really think the prison system would go 'ah ok then, in you go instantly into a women's prison'. Our system isn't perfect, but you cannot honestly believe they would let a long time rapist into a female prison, without any sactions what-so-ever, because he says 'I'm now a woman'. It's another very weak argument and an example of the scare-mongering I previously mentioned.

Well, what else will they be able to do, if recommendations about gender being based on self declaration and not on hormone changes or surgery, are put into place?

There is also a report (can't link it but I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will) in which a British prison governor states that he thinks there are many men in prison likely to claim transgender status for disingenuous reasons.

I will look forward to this 'more knowledgable' person also giving facts, figures and statistics on the matter, not just stating it as thought. Otherwise, it' not fact is it?

Personally, I don't see the logic with anyone being baptised.

Didn't Tara Hudson end up in a women's prison? Wasn't Tara the sex worker who advertised a 7 inch surprise in her panties and headbutted a barman so hard he needs false teeth - and has several previous convictions for grevious bodily harm.

Come on, Bomb - you know there would be a procedure put in place if such a scenario occured. Do you know what it takes to be taken seriously as someone who wants to transition in the first place? a hell of a lot more than just saying 'I'm a woman in a man's body'. Even then, a prison system would highly likely put such a person in a singular isolation cell, if they had been convicted for sexual assult against women, most certainly if they still had a functioning penis. It's so many hoops and jumps, so many years of going throuh these things, most men trying to 'pull a fast one' would either give up, or even be out of jail by the time they 'succeeded'.

Haven't got time to look it out now - toddler needs attention - but will as soon as I get a chance - will it change your view?

scalliondays - Tara Hudson hadn't been convicted of sexual assault against women, what's your point? Who do you think are in women's prisons, a bunch of poor, hard done by 'proper ladies' who wouldn't hurt a fly?

Back on point, I agree Bartholins. However, people are in their rights to do so, just shouldn't be sanctioned for the reasons why they want to do it, or however many times.

It may change my view if it has proper facts in it, well researched with evidence to back it up. If it's just more 'beware, men want to invade everywhere you once considered safe, just because they can', then I can't say it will change my opinion in any way.