Continuation thread re IOC/trans policy and related trans issues

[fidel1ne]

Also a plug for the FB group

www.facebook.com/groups/ATWIWS/

Me: Because I'm a woman and don't need any other group deciding that it isn't enough to be a biological female and being called a woman, that because they have a prefix on the basis of not being biologically female and therefore needing trans that I must need something myself.

I was a baby girl, then had girlhood and now womanhood. I will not have that experience undermined by some prefix than means nothing to me.

Her. Goodness me, well that goes some way to explaining your lack of empathy for others overall.

I'm sorry that you feel that making things fair somehow undermines your experience and I can assure you that's not the intent. It's just a language tool used to make discussions on gender issues more clearly understood. Thank you for explaining your viewpoint, however. I don't really know what else to say other than I guess we still have a long way to go.

Me. Fair? That's funny

It's not a neutral "language tool" at all. It's very heavily loaded to tell you to STFU. She gleefully told you you had no empathy because you were a "cis-hetero white woman". She only used it to tell you your opinion was invalid. Bullshit is it fair. Great response, though wasted on idiots like this.

Hey cote, sorry, I was probably being over sensitive.

Finally caught up with you all! Thank goodness for that!

First, I want to thank cote because I for one think it's helpful to have the definitions in front of us. We do this sometimes at work (NHS and Civil Service professionals) to keep us on track, I think it's working well as cote being chair! :)

This whole thing is a headfuck now, and I wish we could move on from it, but my "cis- privilege" won't let me! It's such a bloody complex issue, because it's not even like the trans people who I've known, in one way or another who, kind of discreetly, ask if they can join in please, if you don't mind, but a "you MUST accept me as female". The whole judging people on what's between their legs is quite frankly laughable, because, I've been put in a lower class since birth on that basis alone!

I think it's this realisation that really rankles those who insist on being part of the 'girls club', because it's not something that's been experienced before. Certainly when I've thrown that back, I've been greeted with stony silence. I think that's very telling.

Ironically for those that argue that, it's the base fact that what's between your legs IS what you're judged on is something that's never really occurred to them before and it hurts to be told that. I don't say it to be cruel, but blunt and factual, society cares what's between your legs and until that's balanced, we can't have equality, and we certainly can't do away with feminism.

*disclaimer: I don't feel great and am on heavy duty drugs so apologies for any misrepresentations of feminism or feminist theory!

Splendide, it is very possible that lots of women accept transwomen as women. They are go along, get along people. That is, until they realise the very personal and practical the implications for them.

They are unaware of the demand to use girls' locker rooms and shower rooms and the fact that women's and girls' sports are already under attack at all levels. Once awareness of the position of transactivists (aka gender extremists) wrt women's and girls' spaces, where women and girls dress and undress and shower becomes clear, I suspect many women (and girls) will stop and like Maryz say 'wtff????'

The smart arse "obsession with genitals" line really grinds my gears. Er, I think you'll find the whole world is obsessed by genitals, it accounts for a huge amount of the prejudice women have faced for thousands of years and continue face in their day to day lives.

It's not even 'obsession with genitalia' though. It's deep, in-depth and very personal knowledge of the consequences of the gender hierarchy that women are concerned with. And here we are, asked to accept after so many decades of breaking down gender barriers, that gender is a real thing that must be respected, that we are what we look like, the sum total of a set of gestures and poses.

They also ask us to accept that the process of identifying as a woman is triggered by having some sort of alleged female brain. It seems biology is truth when it comes to brains but not when we are talking about genitalia.

Should this woman be kept out of changing rooms and women's toilets?

I hope all of you lot are still around when my DS grows up and starts asking me difficult questions about the world. I can never explain things as clearly as the posters here.

Well yes.

Age doesn't change anything.

Really don't care which toilet that person uses.

Would care greatly if this person won "Female author of the year" award. HTH

I notice Exit draws the line at toilets. I draw the line at prestigious awards and slightly below including joining sporting teams.

Toilets, meh. Although I agree they often represent how spaces segregated by sex should be respected.

Erm. I didn't draw the line at toilets. The question was about toilets. Which I answered.

Hmm. For me the problem is with the idea that someone merely has to 'identify' as female in order to gain access to sex segregated spaces (so, someone who has not undergone surgery and may not even be on hormones). I don't have a problem with post-transition individuals in sex segregated spaces, but I can't fully articulate why.

It's funny you should bring up Jan Morris, as I was thinking about her with reference to some of the Mumsnet threads today. Has anyone here read her book, Conundrum, about her experiences changing sex? I thought of it this morning when people on the FWR boards were talking about children being pigeonholed as trans for wanting to play with the 'wrong' toys. This seems to be a very familiar narrative of transition these days. To me it strikes a very strong contrast with Morris's description of an intensely spiritual journey. She also acknowledges at the end that she has lived as both a man and a woman, and that this gives her a 'continuing ambiguity' which is part of her hard-won identity.

Jeez.

Since I am not a monster, I heartily wish that all trans folk, including Jan Morris, get to pee in peace.
If it is hugely important to those transfolk to pee in exactly the same place as people who share their GENDER, and if they refuse to use the toilets corresponding to their SEX - then super. What we now need is toilets for "female gender".

Me: I want to use toilets that correspond with my SEX. I absolutely am uninterested in somebody else's GENDER and I don't want to be sheep-herded into a loo that is for anyone with the female gender.

So now we need loos for Gender "LADYBRAINS"
and also loos for Sex "LADYBODIES"

This good with everybody?

So now we need loos for Gender "LADYBRAINS"
and also loos for Sex "LADYBODIES"

This good with everybody?

Yes please! Perfect solution, everybody's happy, right? Why would anyone not be?

So Tired, what do you think of HLC's sensible suggestion?

Nah that doesn't work venus because gender = sex

Actually I'd like to turn this whole ladybrain stuff on it's head (so to speak). Since all of my brain cells contain the XX chromosomes I can probably say that yes I do have a ladybrain (I prefer the term a female brain really) and I actually have no problem with anyone with such a ladybrain claiming to be a woman? Perhaps we should reclaim the whole ladybrain term? (And I'm honestly not taking the piss).

But if you were to take a piss ..........