Continuation thread re IOC/trans policy and related trans issues

[fidel1ne]

Also a plug for the FB group

www.facebook.com/groups/ATWIWS/

Exactly Maryz - clearcut and wrong is how I would characterise it.

I had something to say, but it has completely gone out of my head, so just marking my place instead...

"What I can't understand is why mtf transgender people looked at the spaces available (male spaces / female spaces) and instead of thinking we will create our own third space which actually acknowledges our shared transgender history/experiences, they instead thought we'll take the women's space"

Because many of them actually believe that they are women. (Not all - Quite a few know that "want to" and "feel like" are not the same thing as "are". See Miranda Yardley).

If this were any other group of people whose perceptions conflict with reality, the world would maybe humour them but would certainly not pretend to agree with them.

"The position they are taking is that there is no category difference between woman and transwoman... So it can't be misogynistic because it's one woman giving way to another woman. I don't agree personally but I don't find it confusing or contradictory."

Sure, you can resolve any inner contradiction by assuming a major (false) assumption to be true. Thus goes the Newspeak of our age.

If you accept "Cats are dogs" as true, it is not confusing that you expect your cat to bark and guard your property against intruders.

If you accept "Transwomen are women", then it is not misogynistic to force transwomen into women's spaces despite objections from women.

Except that cats are not dogs and transwomen are males who think they are women, not women ("adult human females").

Yes Cote, that's correct. Lots of people accept transwomen are women. I think it's quite helpful to keep this in mind when thinking about motives and why people get so angry about the issue.

The thing is, in terms of majority opinion, I'd say there's more an attitude that "it doesn't hurt anyone to be nice and call them women and it's not nice to hurt their feelings". Without very much thought being given to the logical ends and wider ramifications of that position. Very very few people actually think that there is no category difference between women and trans women at all.

"Lots of people accept transwomen are women."

They are about as correct as those who accept cats as dogs - two words with entirely different definitions.

Woman: Adult human female

Transwoman: Adult human male who "feels like" a woman.

Female: Of the sex that can bear young or produce eggs.

Male: Of the sex that can produce sperm.

"I think it's quite helpful to keep this in mind when thinking about motives and why people get so angry about the issue."

Sorry, that is not 'quite helpful' because I have no idea what you wanted to say there but I hope you are not getting angry or saying someone else is about to.

Personally, I think definitions are 'quite helpful' and that much of this debate would be unnecessary if we all took a moment to familiarise ourselves with the dictionary definitions of the words man, woman, male, and female.

Cote, I'm on your side (I think?). I was saying transactivists get angry because they (wrongly in my opinion) think they are the same as women.

I've clearly pissed you off so I guess I'll retreat back to lurking these threads, sorry. It really is a closed club, these trans threads aren't they? Even to poster who agree with you!

I don't understand half the stuff said on here as I am a woman of simple mind. But I don't think it is a closed club.

And I agree with your view Maryz. I believe in live and let live as long as it doesn't cause anyone any harm.

But some of the stuff I have read over the last few weeks has really made made my toes curl.

It's like a dark underbelly of total madness.

Splendide please don't think that way
Cote, please take a moment and try not to be so confrontational, it doesn't help and you got the wrong end of the stick

It's not a closed club splendide, as Mary has said it gets incredibly frustrating. Cote shouldn't feel she has to walk on eggshells around you, and you shouldn't feel like you should have to around her. It's just robust debate, and that is what is sadly lacking everywhere else.

Maryz
The one thing I remember most about this thread, because it mirrors my own feelings, is you (I think it was you) saying (not verbatim) "The only trans I know about is my transition from trans-ally to Germaine Greer"

splendide - You most certainly have not pissed me off. I'm sorry you got that impression. Please continue to post.

I just didn't understand what you meant by saying I should keep in mind that people get angry because they believe something or other. English people can be too subtle for me sometimes

I tend to go through life not caring much if people get angry because they have unreasonable beliefs such as "A is B despite the fact that A means something completely different than B".

Sure, it would be better if they don't get upset, but not at the price of everyone lying to keep up their illusion imho.

Maryz - applauds!

The language issue is such an obstacle - it shuts down so much debate because it's hard to get your voice across clearly. And surely that's the intention of some people!
I'm firmly of the belief that we shouldn't have to change our language on the whim of one group to the detriment of everyone else.
But on the other hand part of me thinks maybe we should play them at their own game and campaign for changes based on biology rather than gender e.g. This prison is for people with penises. So they can argue that they have a lady penis all they like but can't argue to be moved.
(Not sure I'm expressing myself very well here)

I think the transactivists are doing a disservice to the transwomen who are going about their day to day lives, just wanting to be left alone to get on with it.

I do agree with this. It seems to me a lot of the problems lie within the transgender community itself which bunches together transvestites and non-op trans people with transsexual women who in many ways are the complete opposite and have long since left that scene if they were even ever involved in it in the first place.

I suppose I also agree in that women have a right to be skeptical at the very least of a transgender person entering a woman only space on the basis of one year of hormone therapy (which is what the IOC appear to think it is).

It's certainly not a "closed club". I remember when Maryz was coming on these threads to say how wrong we were . I also remember my own clueless live-and-let-live attitude and shock at reading about the very real impact of "Let's just accept them as women - what's the harm?" on these threads.

These threads have served as a wake-up call to many of us and their very important function is to raise awareness and grow the "club" imho.

YY. And the club is growing. This space for genuinely free debate is very valuable.

But on the other hand part of me thinks maybe we should play them at their own game and campaign for changes based on biology rather than gender e.g. This prison is for people with penises

I think trying to redraw the differences between "sex" and "gender" is very worthwhile. What follows should become a clear dissection of whether a law needs to cover the former or the latter. Which characteristic needs protecting in the relevant context?

Workplace discrimination - gender and sex. We don't want anyone to be discriminated against on either of those things.
Prisons - gender and sex. But in two different units/facilities, because the requirements for protection are slightly different. So trans prisons, or trans units in sex-segregated prisons.
Sports - sex. I cannot see ANY reasonable argument to protect for gender.

Yes maids exactly!

Today I was told, on a FB thing about the motherhood challenge that excluded people that didn't give birth, that as a cis-hetero white woman I lacked empathy....

I very nearly combusted.

I explained that cis was a prefix I didn't accept, as person born a baby girl, who experienced the highs and lows or girlhood and then womanhood, I was happy being called a woman.

Ooh what response did you get to that, Posie! Well said.