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Continuation thread re IOC/trans policy and related trans issues

955 replies

fidel1ne · 27/01/2016 12:26

Also a plug for the FB group Grin

www.facebook.com/groups/ATWIWS/

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
BeyondBootcampsAgain · 03/02/2016 14:21

Yy posie, its making me think of "oh we dont need feminism anymore"

venusinscorpio · 03/02/2016 14:30

All women's problems have been solved. It's official.

ObsidianBlackbirdMcNight · 03/02/2016 14:39

No idea why I'm still engaging but I've just been deleted on buzzfeed for saying that trans men are still female
It's total censorship of facts. The party line must be toed at all times. I'm so scared for today's teens and children who won't read any dissenting voices to the trans dogma

MrsTerryPratchett · 03/02/2016 15:14

Childcare shouldn't be a women's issue. Absolutely not. In an ideal, feminist world. However, because of sexism, based on biological sex, it predominantly is. Sticking our fingers in our ears and saying, "la la la" doesn't stop my DH getting paid more than me, getting less parental leave than me, having expectations of presenteeism that I don't.

The 'pregnancy is a human issue' thing. Yes, it is. In a 'we all have families' way. But in two very major ways, it is a women's issue. One: 'We' are not fucking pregnant. My body, my choices, my risk of death, disfigurement and pain. Two: When textbooks and midwifery services are forced to change their language from things like "the woman's cervix dilates" to "the labouring human's cervix dilates" we have jumped the shark. It's just not true that men have dilating cervixes.

PosieReturningParker · 03/02/2016 15:46

Obsidian? deleted? fucking hell.

iPost · 03/02/2016 16:09

It's total censorship of facts. The party line must be toed at all times

Yup.

Continuation thread re IOC/trans policy and related trans issues
PosieReturningParker · 03/02/2016 16:10

Which thread?

ObsidianBlackbirdMcNight · 03/02/2016 16:11

Don't panic - not on here. On buzzfeed

iPost · 03/02/2016 16:14

A very well written post about the "heretic !" debate style in identity politics.

www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2015/10/28/comment-the-attack-on-germaine-greer-shows-identity-politics

RedToothBrush · 03/02/2016 16:52

Maryz Thu 28-Jan-16 23:06:58
Here is an article you should all read.

stephaniedaviesarai.com/cwc/uncategorized/maria-millers-report-puts-feminists-in-an-impossible-position/ - before all the sport stuff, I might have thought it was a little harsh, because it never occurred to me that transwomen really, truly and honestly believe they are women the same as anyone born a woman, and that they have a right to all women's spaces - not just toilets about whcih I care little, but safe groups, safe spaces, refuges etc etc.

Thank you for posting that Maryz. It certainly strikes a few cords for me.

Its been a while since I read this thread, as the subject is a difficult one due to my personal circumstances. I've written about it on MN a few times, as I feel there are huge parts of this debate that are not being properly talked out due to fear. I had a brother and now have a sister (I have no idea what stage of transition, and frankly I'm not minded to ask, and its kind of irrelevant to me on the whole).

I find it hard to talk about for many of the reasons in that article. To be honest about my feelings is to be transphobic or not accepting. I find that in itself a problem. It gives me no space or no ability to come to terms with things. I am just expected to accept it and get on with life.

I know this is slightly off topic, but I think its relevant in the wider context of the debate.

The only person that is important in the situation is my sibling. How it has affected everyone else is somehow unimportant and irrelevant because they are the one who faces prejudice. The problem is that, such a huge change to a family dynamic creates ripples that have an impact on others and their own self identity. If I'm honest about it, I think it has had a profound effect on my own mental health and self worth.

It can be extremely difficult to explain things in a way that is easy for others to understand, in a way that isn't somehow bitter or self pitying, but still conveys so of the reality of it.

I do feel in many respects that my past has been somehow erased and my memories are somehow rewritten in trying not to offend by using the wrong pronoun. Its almost as if my version of our shared past has been ruled as invalid and less important as a result. Its almost like when the victor in a war writes history, but neglects to talk about the bits they are slightly less proud about and in doing so it does an injustice to certain groups rather than really addressing issues in the past. It almost sweeps certain issues under the carpet and is in denial that they ever happened.

I find questions from strangers about 'how many brothers and sisters do you have?' difficult. Are you honest about it or do you lie? And if you do lie in someway, will that then lead to more difficult questions in the future? Which version do you go with?

I have heard the phrase, "but he's still your brother" many times. It misses the point, that my reality is, that I don't have a brother anymore. I have a sister. And therein lies the paradox. Our self identity is forged by many things, but one of the most important is our position within our family group - whether we be the eldest child, the middle or the youngest or whether we have no or many siblings and whether we want to admit it or not, whether they are male or female. It is our solid foundation in life. Any changes to that foundation, can have a profound effect on us. Its not just the identity of someone who is trans which changes when they transition, but also those closest too them.

Growing up with a brother, affects the relations you have with other and the experiences you have compared with if you have a sister, whether you want to admit it or not. Its simple and subtle differences, but none the less important ones. For example, the gifts and toys you play with as kids that now become loaded with meaning. My childhood has been rewritten by this revelation. What if things had been different? My brothers life would had been very different if he had been my sister, and that's something we can never get away from. Its not about a constructed gender identity now nor a sexual identity. Its about an experience through which we have learned about the world and our position in it that can not be changed retrospectively however hard we try.

I think that's really the crux of my point. There are trans-women who believe truly that they are women. And in some respects that may be true. But in others, in growing up as a man, its also not true. Its not about their ability to bear children - its about their vision and perspective of the world that is fundamentally different and unique to them as a group and is not shared by people who are born as biological women. To deny this is, is to erase the memories, the history and the experiences of another group. Experiences which are equally valid but are different. There may be an overlap, but there are two groups not one and we have to start acknowledging this within society, instead of ignoring it, as I do believe that it fundamentally harms everyone within society if we do not acknowledge and deal with the differences rather than trying to be inclusive in a way, which will never really be inclusive. Changing your hormones, your bodily shape, the way you dress or the name you take does not change your past. You can't just 'be a woman', you grow into a woman through the years. Perhaps after years of living as a woman, you can be 'more of a woman' than someone who has just transitions for that reason. I don't know.

I guess, if I reduce it to the old changing room debate as it seems to be one that you can't get away from. If after years of growing up with my brother, and trusting him and loving him, don't you think it would be pretty weird to suddenly the day after him coming out, to go into a changing room and be comfortable about undressing in front of him? Its not because I see my sibling as a threat; far from it. Equally, I'd find it almost alarming if he could have done the same with me.

Its also about the lines we have within society that go beyond that and are at the core of our own identities and our experiences. The fact that many women have had experiences with the opposite gender which are deeply unpleasant are relevant in this respect as its about the fact that if you have grown up as a man, even if you then later transition to being a female, what you fear can be fundamentally different. Its about the shared experience and how the shared experience is different.

Its really NOT about hormones, and I think reducing it to a debate about hormones is frankly insulting.

We need to talk about things in terms of both our present self as well as our past self rather than trying to pretend that our past does not exist, because I don't know anywhere or anything else in life, where we are expected to deny that something has happened. We have to be at peace and accept our past, in order to move forward as unfortunately when we don't, it tends to have a negative impact on both ourselves and others.

I appreciate that this may offend some, though its not intended to. Its simply that we need to stop framing this as a conflict between those who accept transgenderism and those who don't, but to acknowledge the experiences and problems of all, and build a workable future for everyone.

ObsidianBlackbirdMcNight · 03/02/2016 18:11

Red great post Flowers

TheXxed · 03/02/2016 18:25

I am sorry you going through a difficult time redtoothbrush Flowers your post was illuminating I never thought of trans* orthodoxy in that way.

venusinscorpio · 03/02/2016 18:31

Yes, your perspective is very valuable and almost completely absent in the media. I can imagine how you would feel that you weren't really allowed to have those feelings. Very thoughtful post. Thank you.

BeyondBootcampsAgain · 03/02/2016 18:45

Flowers red

slugseatlettuce · 03/02/2016 18:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ObsidianBlackbirdMcNight · 03/02/2016 18:57

Oh god oh god I've posted the Helen blog post on my real Facebook

0phelia · 03/02/2016 19:05

I struggle to see what feminist issues also apply to transwomen slugseatlettuce

You are forgetting the TA mantra "men can fall pregnant too"
"men can have periods too" etc. Constantly reminding us that women can become transmen.

While we all know the most vocal TAs are transwomen they gain huge traction from the premise that women can be transmen. Therefore women's issues are man's issues.
Thus there are no such issues as women's issues, because we live in a world where men can be women and women can be men.

It makes a mockery out of those of us who are not trans.

PosieReturningParker · 03/02/2016 19:08

Great post red I wish you well and that someone asks you how you feel every once in a while.

We are told as women just to step aside and accept. That womanhood is something we decide, not a journey from day one! My dd is going through normal but very very early puberty. I had to explain periods to her at 7, we had to talk about bras and discharge...
All things that happen to girls during puberty where they then become a woman.

IceBeing · 03/02/2016 19:33

hmm...so off my own back I set off to solve a problem some other women were suffering in my work place...I got the people who needed prompting to work out it was the right thing on board and got that particular problem sorted.

And because I took a pragmatic approach to getting sufficient buy in, you have all judged me to be lacking empathy, misogynistic and recast me as someone who thinks feminism is no longer necessary, and have stated that I want to erase women and my ideas are 'chilling'.

I am a woman. I have a child. I don't have childcare issues. FGM, cervical cancer and pregnancy aren't more pressing problems for me than for my husband (who is in fact a human being and hence cares a lot about FGM and who also frankly gives more of a shit about my health than I do).

I would recast FGM as a problem for men if they know any women they care about, like mothers, wives, daughters or friends.

I completely fail to understand the idea that only women should care about 'women's issues' I think it is sexist and counter productive when there are so many willing male feminists out there.

venusinscorpio · 03/02/2016 19:36

I don't believe in male feminists. They are feminist allies, for me.

Maryz · 03/02/2016 19:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

IceBeing · 03/02/2016 19:39

I find that laughable and pathetic to be honest venus.

venusinscorpio · 03/02/2016 19:40

Do you? Colour me stunned.

Maryz · 03/02/2016 19:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ClaudiaApfelstrudel · 03/02/2016 19:52

I do agree that the length of time since completion of the surgery and living in a role of the intended gender makes someone much more like that gender. I feel quite uncomfortable with the idea that someone can change 'gender' practically overnight these days but then maybe that's me.

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