Continuation thread re IOC/trans policy and related trans issues

[fidel1ne]

Also a plug for the FB group

www.facebook.com/groups/ATWIWS/

I am fine. Well as fine as I ever will be. I accept it and I have friends who have been good and understood why its not so simple. It doesn't change the fact that my family won't ever be the same though. This however is part of the problem. My sibling wants to play happy families now they are in a settled, positive relationship and point in their life. Don't get me wrong; I am so pleased about this and I am genuinely happy for them, given how difficult this can be for people in similar situations. They are lucky.

It doesn't change how I feel about it though. And I should be allowed to think and feel about how it has impacted on me rather than merely nodding like a dog and saying 'yep that's ok' even if its not and I'm not.

The thing I found hardest about it, is the fact that I am generally liberal minded and accepting, and this challenged that view of myself. It was very different when put into that position.

I felt incredibly guilty and lacking because I struggled with accepting it in line with the narrative of "well he's still your brother" as if nothing had changed in the relationship, because it has.

I have to say, I'm not sure I'm keen on the 'grieving' analogy though. It has its flaws. I felt more as if it were a combination of my life being founded on a lot of lies and suddenly I woke up to a different truth / all the things I knew to be true suddenly not being true - eg black was now white and vice versa. It was very much the rug being pulled out from under your feet and removing your security.

I had to forgive myself and admit that it wasn't that simple and it was actually partly about myself and my own identity. I had to think about redrawing the debate in my own head and explore the ins and outs of the subject rather than going down the 'politically correct' singular black and white accepting / transphobic thing which neglects to explore the wider impact beyond the trans individual. Its all very well discussing about how trans-women self identity and view themselves, but this doesn't look at how biologically born women self identity and view themselves.

It might not be what trans-women what to hear, but in not having that discussion, there is a problem and a debate that is not being had. Instead it is labelled as transphobic. I personally don't think its as clear cut as that and that is causing much of the conflict. There has to be a consensus and a debate which has not been had. Why aren't biologically women being asked about what it means to identify as a woman and how they view their gender identity? It does seem that it only trans-women who are allowed to drive what defines this. Maybe I'm missing something here...?

The Maria Miller debacle isn't helping the matter and only stands to highlight the on going problems. She needs to engage with women's groups rather than attack or dismiss them. Until she does, the report only creates conflict and resentment, rather than establishing a better relationship between groups.

I sit in a position where I consider myself a moderate and do shy well away from the 'feminist tag' preferring to use the label of being a supporter of equality for all groups, so I deeply resent a lot of the clap trap being presented in the media.

I personally, want better rights for my sibling, and for them to face less prejudice. Their life is potentially at risk in various ways without better equality. However whatever is done or recommended has to be balanced off with the concerns and rights of biologically born women too rather than at their expense though. Biologically born women can not be overridden and not represented or dismissed as bigoted in this discourse and that's effectively what's happening.

To say that I am anti trans-women is appalling and categorically wrong.

The issue is really that a large number of people want to simplify and reduce what is a very difficult and complex issue, into a binary one. It will not serve transgender women well in the long term, if this is imposed on all women in this way.

I dunno, I just feel as if there isn't a proper representation and hearing of all voices and hugely important issues are being missed, which will have huge consequences regardless of which 'side' you are on.

In essence that's it in a nutshell. It comes down to 'sides'. All of which is very childish and unproductive and doesn't show a democratic and liberal minded society up to the ideals that this report is supposed to be upholding.

Red, thank you for your great post.

I think it illustrates a fundamental issue faced by everyone dealing with a narcissist -- the effect of the narcissist's choices on others cannot be discussed. Only the narcissist's intentions may be regarded with anything approaching criticism, and even then other people are obliged to come to a conclusion that is very charitable.

I agree with Maryz that somehow or other the mental health/delusion/cognitive dissonance aspects of transgender have been overlooked. I think there is profound narcissism involved too.

Two great posts.

Red

I don't think there are necessarily women's issues as such. They are societies problems. However some people have more of a vested interested and some people understand issues more than others and hold them as much higher in importance than others. There are groups that are better equipped to deal with them than others, and there are groups whose presence can actually be a hindrance and an obstacle rather than a positive force.

If the issue is that a woman feels threatened by a man then you need to understand that fear, and provide a situation which removes that fear and supports that. It should not promote or suggest that men are all bad and should be excluded which I think sometimes does, at times, creep into debates on the subject.

I suffer from anxiety relating to health. Forcing me to go to the doctor who I don't trust in order to be counselled is counter productive and absurd as it doesn't understand the problem nor does it recognise the importance of trust and building a positive relationship in being the key to overcoming that anxiety. It doesn't matter if I'm utterly bonkers and wrong in thinking doctors don't necessarily have my best interests at heart. I still need a particular type of support, which may not fit with the NHS's general recommended care pathway for anxiety. The only thing that is important is the fact that I receive compassion and get the appropriate care for my individual needs.

This is what the report fails to address. Fear is something which is primarily born out of an emotional rather than a logical assessment of risk. Its the perception of the situation which is even more important than the reality. Trust is incredibly difficult to build up and establish especially when that has been broken.

A woman who has experienced rape or domestic violence also has a logical reason to fear men, based on her individual experience. Her fear of men may be disproportionately inaccurate or indeed misguided based on statistics - but her reality and her need is genuine. A report saying she is therefore bigoted is ridiculous, especially if she self identifies gender in a different way to someone else. It is devoid of humanity and understanding. She deserves appropriate care in the appropriate circumstances. Its the stuff of bureaucrats.

You instead, need to address the real problem; why there are sexual and violent crimes against women which leads women to feel like this, rather than calling women bigoted for being afraid based on their experiences.

There has to be an understanding of the complexity of this type of issue and situation and perhaps its not appropriate to treat one group in the same place as another. For example in the same way that its not the greatest idea to treat a woman suffering a miscarriage on a general ante-natal ward even though the staff and the equipment will be largely the same.

That's not saying that trans-women don't have need of a space or that spaces can't be shared at certain times, but there is a clear ring fencing of space for those women who DO need it as it has an impact on trust and relationships, rightly or wrongly. It comes down to needing more resourcing and more recognition of certain issues and problems, rather than putting more pressure on those those few services which are already over stretched and underfunded. The combined needs of trans groups and womens' groups, should combining forces to achieve more, rather than pitting themselves against each other with the encouragement of government.

Anyway, that's getting off topic even more.

I'm not sure if I understand your 1st paragraph there, Red.

We don't call FGM, abortion, cervical cancer, etc "women's issues" because women care more about them and are better equipped to deal with them. We call them "women's issues" because they happen only to women.

That's not saying that trans-women don't have need of a space or that spaces can't be shared at certain times, but there is a clear ring fencing of space for those women who DO need it as it has an impact on trust and relationships, rightly or wrongly.

As I understand your post, women and girls would be in a position of having to qualify for a ring fenced place based on genuine need? The current situation (under heavy attack) is far better -- all women and girls regardless of stated need get to use women's showers and loos and locker rooms.

And I agree with Cote -- things that happen or could only happen to biological women are central issues for women, thanks to the basic, fundamental biology.

The point where transwomen and women diverge is the same point where men and women diverge -- it is a matter of basic biology. There is no government encouragement of divergence, and there is no such thing as combined needs. Women have their one need and men have their own too, and never the twain can meet.

The need of transwomen otoh, is for their performance of 'woman' to gain the approbation of an audience. Their acceptance into women's spaces is central to the performance. An effect on men is sought too, often resulting in anger and incomprehension when the inconvenient penis gets in the way of turning the delusion into reality. To this end complete acceptance for the Emperor's New Clothes the actual women, and other men too, are reduced to playing the role of props in a drama that is completely self referential, self absorbed and self focused.

all women and girls and only women and girls* regardless of stated need get to use women's showers and loos and locker rooms.

As I understand your post, women and girls would be in a position of having to qualify for a ring fenced place based on genuine need? The current situation (under heavy attack) is far better -- all women and girls regardless of stated need get to use women's showers and loos and locker rooms.

Actually its more about establishing facilities that run along side and in addition to existing ones that provide the same level of service and quality, rather than them having second rate services.

I'm not sure it's accurate to say that women care more about abortion because that would require men to care about it at all, which in any cases I don't think is true. Men seem to me to want to sweep the issue under the carpet as if it wasn't there

"establishing facilities that run along side and in addition to existing ones" for females with a 'genuine' need to be segregated from males?

You seem to be saying that women who have not been raped, assaulted, or otherwise traumatised by male aggression should be sharing intimate spaces with males who "feel like" women. Surely you don't mean that.

I wrote the following earlier this evening, before reading the most recent posts:

Red – Thank you for writing about your situation. It’s an important perspective that I hadn’t thought about before. Your history has been re-written, and that must be the case for other families/friends/colleagues who are all told they must be supportive of the transperson yet, like you, their voices aren’t really being heard. You now have a sister, but you didn’t grow up with a sister, and you can’t have a conversation with your sister about, say, menstrual cramps, as you would have been able to do if you’d always had a sister.

Since you’ve posted, I’ve been trying to imagine what it would be like if my adult son transitioned. Of course I would be as supportive as I could be but, even before reading threads here, I’d have found it difficult to not think about what he would never be able to understand about being a woman.

IceBeing - I really don’t understand whatever point you are trying to make. There’s “women’s issues” which everyone should be concerned about, and there’s “women’s issues” that only women could experience. I’m not sure that you know the difference in reality. Or maybe you do understand the difference but aren’t confident enough to say it out loud in your training sessions.

---

I spent time writing that, not just because I'm a pedant, not just because I like to try and frame my comments appropriately, but also because my whole lifetime experience of being female is that I have to be careful what I say and justify what I say. Transwomen in the media don't seem to have that problem.

And there's yet another sob story in the media of a MtF whose paperwork apparently got lost in the NHS system. Now crowdfunding for surgery. Yep, a boob job.

Stop reading too much into my posts please Cote. Its hard enough at times to express things. It feels like walking on a tightrope and one wrong move and you fall off to your death. The term 'walking on eggshells' doesn't cut it or describe how it feels at times.

I am merely trying to say that there should be facilities for all. Regardless. How they are set up, and where they are set up, and who they are for, has to be treated sensitively, that is all.

My sibling deserves services too. As I previously said, I don't know the status of the contents of their underwear. Its irrelevant in many respects to me, though I appreciate it might bother others. All that concerns me, for them, is that they have free and easy access to services that are available to women and are of a comparable standard should they ever need it.

I would hate to think of the scenario where they couldn't do this, just as much as I would hate to think of women being forced into a space they felt threatened in. Mainly because this has the potential to endanger life too.

Its not about one over the other. Why is it always reduced to it being about one group having more right or greater need or being more deserving than another?

Its about right and appropriate care and support for all (which is technically a right under the NHS, though I appreciate that many of these issues don't fall under the remit of the NHS, I do think the principle enshrined with the NHS is one that should guide how we treat women and trans-women in various situations in the wider world and community).

If it takes more funding to do this, this is what we should all be pushing for, rather than arguing the toss over who gets what out of the existing pot of resources. Long term, it is usually more cost effective, if you give people the correct help at the right time rather than letting a health / social care and support problem fester. (If only subsequent governments of all colours could grasp this concept we would all be better off).

I'm trying Red, but your posts do read like you are saying all women aside from those who have been raped & assaulted by men in the past should just welcome transwomen into female-only spaces. Apologies if math & I have misunderstood and if that is not what you meant, please tell us what is.

You said you are uncomfortable changing in front of your sibling (who used to be your brother but is now your sister) and that is a male in your family whom you have grown up with. Can you imagine how the rest of us would feel, even women who are not traumatised?

Btw I agree with you re 'there should be spaces for everybody'. I agree wholeheartedly with that.

I just don't believe that the appropriate place for any adult male is a female-only space, regardless of how feminine they feel & what they think their gender is.

Cote, I wouldn't have read that into RedToothBrush's posts.

I'm sure "services that run alongside male/female services" (Red's post) is the solution we all hope to achieve.

Male services/spaces, Female services/spaces, transmale services/spaces, transfemale services/spaces.

But in order to achieve this transgender people need to campaign for equal rights of their own rather than encroach the rights of others.

The TA agenda would benefit from campaigning for it's own rights.

The concept at the heart of the trans argument - this 'identifying', doesn't seem to make sense to lots of us as women, It seems very odd and abstract, though I can't speak for every woman. The reason I can't speak for every woman is precisely because I can't experience another's consciousness. So how do trans women have this internal identification? What's their reference? What makes more sense to me is 'identifying as a woman' being about wanting the experience of being viewed as female by the outside world, either because of positive associations or so called privileges with femininity or negative associations with masculinity, or both. Maybe this is why there appears to be more performing femininity in trans women.

It would make sense for transpeople to recognise themselves as a group in need of services, and to campaign for this.

I would be entirely behind many issues such as transpeople having sporting competitions, spaces in shopping centres, fashion designed to better specification for their group, etc etc.

Where it falls down is the pretence that transwomen are the same as women or transmen are the same as men. They obviously aren't because their needs are very different.

I agree the identifying as a woman makes no sense to me either. I know how I feel, I don't feel the way I do because I am a woman though but because I am me. Loads of women have different ideas and views to me, loads of men have similar ones. I'm still a woman despite this because I have XX chromosomes and am phenotypically female.
We don't have fluffy feminine thoughts, I'm a woman because I am a woman just like I am 5 ft 8 with blue eyes.

That's a good way of pointing it Maryz.

Everything feels slightly 'off' and not quite right. I can't relate to friends with brother or sisters anymore. Its not the same. My past is different and my future is different.

I quickly found that you could talk about 'girly' things like clothes either because of the minefield of the potential to offend. Hypersensitivity, to the slightest comment was impossible.

There seems to be a trans community but much less of a community for their families, probably because of the taboo and the fear of not 'saying the right thing'. I guess I'm not sure I'd want to be part of one either if I'm honest either. The problem is I don't want to be defined by my younger siblings identity really. I want my own identity. Yet somehow that gets lost in how the family is subsequently dominated by this huge change.

I'm not part of the woman's 'side' of the debate nor am I part of the trans 'side'. I feel invested in both camps, yet not really belonging to either. I simply don't see how there can ever be a binary male / female definition because of how it affects all, and I do think campaigning for that, it is completely in denial about so many issues and problems it throws up. Its at its most innocent extremely naïve and at its worst as others have suggested manipulative and sinister in nature. There are definitely trans individuals who fall into both ends of the spectrum. And there are those who do recognise that, and I think its disingenuous to assume differently (more voices that don't seem to get heard too often too). How much of it, is about who shouts the loudest, rather than what's more representative of the community as a whole?

There is a certain lack of real, credible and balanced voices. Just lots of people who get angry and shout at each other, and make assumptions or are over sensitive about certain points. I'm not sure there are many working to find common ground, consensus or a more reasoned approach sadly.

My parents don't seem to feel it in the same way either. Its hard for them, but in different ways. They had a life and identity before my brother was born to draw from, whereas I don't feel I have that. They don't have to reconcile normal sibling tensions from other feelings.

I think feeling apart and isolated from other people's reality just about sums it up. Caught in the middle of the cross fire of a raging debate.

I think the whole "women have a right to be in a women's space without feeling threatened", whilst correct, is a bit of a red herring. It implies that as long as there is no actual or perceived threat, then anything goes.
It leaves open the defence of "don't worry, I won't hurt you, don't you trust me?"
I tried a thought exercise: is there any circumstance in which I feel OK sharing a vulnerable space with a man - who wasn't any threat to me.

If I was showering in my local swimming pool changing rooms and a bunch of men were able to view me, but not reach me, from behind a glass wall, would that be acceptable? That I couldn't be hurt, or threatened, that I am technically safe from harm? No.

If they were gay, and didn't fancy me? No.
If an elderly frail chap was showering next to me, who physically couldn't hurt me? No
If he had failing eyesight and couldn't see me? No

What matters is right to privacy, right to dignity, right to be with other women without the presence of a man.

The "real or perceived threat" argument tries to appeal to others to feel sorry for the plight of women, which is OK I suppose, except it denies the fact that I consider it my right to be segregated only with other women when I might be naked, or vulnerable, or in need of the presence of only other women. It should be enough to take us at our word, and respect our autonomy:
We are women, and we only want to be in these spaces with other women.