Continuation thread re IOC/trans policy and related trans issues

[fidel1ne]

Also a plug for the FB group

www.facebook.com/groups/ATWIWS/

Yes Maryz, as well as a lack of te term 'cis Man', I've yet to see a trans man demand that men stop referring to issues such as testicular or prostate cancer as men's health issues as it is exclusionary to them, or to not refer to a "penis". I haven't seen a large movement for trans men to gain access to male spaces or compete in male sporting competitions. Is there an equivalent to the 'cotton ceiling' for trans men?

Thanks for that link Hully.

A nice succinct explanation of the whole sorry mess.

That blog post is great - I am going to refer anyone else in RL that thinks that it doesnt really matter that transwomen can compete in women's sports straight to it.

I also refuse to be referred to as a cis woman.

Ice

Pregnancy = sex and yes, it's a women's issue because only women can get pregnant.

Childcare = gender so I sort of agree, it shouldn't be a women's issue, but denying that it is, currently, something that disproportionately affects women is not helpful.

It's great isn't it? That's what I thought, just show that to people as a simple straightforward unarguable explanation and save a lot of time and rage...

I am a woman.

I've had the debate regarding Transmen, no male privilege or entitlement about redefining what man is.

I've never been pregnant and never want to be but pregnancy is still an issue that affects me. I spent years on hormones that messed with my body and my mental health to avoid pregnancy. I had a general anaesthetic and foreign objects put into my body to prevent pregnancy. I can't be certain but I've probably been discriminated against when it comes to getting jobs because of my perceived likelihood of getting pregnant. This discrimination in the workplace would be diminished if women weren't the default child carer.

Pregnancy and childcare issues affect all women even if they never have children.

I was infertile for 12 years. During that whole time of not being able to get pregnant, I still regarded pregnancy as a "women's issue".

It's a women's issue because, as PPs have said , it only directly affects women.

Pregnancy, FGM etc are not issues for all women but they are women's issues because they only affect women.

Oh, the tragic irony of the people trying to erase women whilst simultaneously wanting to become one.

This^

Posie, PM me, I can add you to the FB group.

crayon well thanks muchly for the slight concession to the idea it might be possible to have a different view point!

I am not denying in any sense whatsoever that pregnancy isn't an issue that affects only women or that child care is an issue that predominantly affects women.

I just don't think that makes them 'womens issues'. Because a lot of women aren't affected by either of them and women aren't all the same.

"I am not denying in any sense whatsoever that pregnancy isn't an issue that affects only women... I just don't think that makes them 'womens issues'."

Um... An issue that affects only women is by definition a women's issue

You are tying yourself up in knots trying to accommodate the ideology that "trans women are women, just like any other women", and that is because it is false. The cognitive dissonance is a bit sad to watch but also fascinating in a way.

Transwomen are not female ("Of the sex that can bear young or produce eggs") and hence cannot be women ("Adult human female"). That is why women's issues and transwomen's issues don't necessarily or even usually overlap.

I am sorry if this hurts their feelings but it is basic biology and dictionary definitions and we should not be expected to lie about them.

I just don't think that makes them 'womens issues'. Because a lot of women aren't affected by either of them and women aren't all the same

I think you are using a definition of "women's issues" that isn't very intuitive.

I don't think Ice has a particular investment in trans issues or trans politics. She just has some rather bizarre ideas.

Quite chiling ideas actually.

I don't mean chilling in the smoking a spliff listening to relaxing music way.

I am actually just reporting the problems I have encountered in trying to engage both men and women in changing our working environment for the better.

Child care as a womens issue gets no traction whatsoever because the majority of women here don't consider it relevant to them and the men assume womens issues are nothing to do with them either. So 2/80 people on board.

Recasting it as a parenting issue reminded the men they are parents too and would occasionally like to be the ones to pick their kids up from school.

With all the parents 60/80 on board we passed regulation changes easily that helped predominantly the women with children...but only by making it all parents problems.

I think many feminist causes might make faster progress for the women affected by them if they stopped casting them deliberately as women's issues.

Similarly we improved maternity cover for women by pointing out that its now parental cover and the men may benefit one day too.

This is just about pragmatism...which I think trumps idealism.

I agree childcare shouldn't be a woman's issue. Most feminists think childcare shouldn't be shouldered by women alone.

You're backtracking now.

FGM? Cervical cancer? Pregnancy? Breastfeeding? Women's spaces such as prison and sporting teams?
Laughable to try to say these are not women's issues which is what you have been saying.
You are trying to say no issues are women's issues if they effect all of society.

Way to discredit women's differences and specific needs. You have a staggering lack of empathy.

The unfortunate fact is that patriarchy expects women to take responsibility for all childcare.
Most feminism tries to reconcile this as a women's issue that shouldn't be a women's issue.

Ha ha ha men needed reminding they were parents and might like to pick up their children from school

Guess what, ice being- if you are a mother, no one needs to remind you, instead you are never allowed to forget

I would like to meet this significant minority of women who are outraged by the idea of

Hormonal birth control
Abortion access
FGM
Sex Discrimination
Pregnancy
Ovarian/uterine cancers

being anything to do with women, or classifiable as women's issues

Where might this significant minority be found?

Exactly 0phelia. And what trans politics is doing is trying to take the language away from women that allows us to challenge these expectations.

Recasting it as a parenting issue reminded the men they are parents too

And how would you recast FGM to remind men that they are victims too?

Trying to recast this stuff as human issues reminds me of people who say they're not feminists but humanists or equalitists.

The reason there's no traction about issues like childcare is because they are women's issues and therefore not seen as important.

This is an issue with women's needs being secondary to mens.

YY Posie.