Continuation thread re IOC/trans policy and related trans issues

[fidel1ne]

Also a plug for the FB group

www.facebook.com/groups/ATWIWS/

descriptions I've encountered are more along the lines of questioning why a transwoman might be ruled out as potential partners by lesbians. That, to me, is significantly different to an expectation or perceived right, which would indeed be very wrong.

You really do have an odd way of looking at things. Why would a trans woman be interested in why a lesbian wouldn't sleep with trans women, if it wasn't an expectation they had?

Im struggling to articulate my thoughts over this, it all seems so unreal. I explained the cotton ceiling to DH and he thought it was as outrageous a concept as I do.

The one thing I can't get past is the sheer gall of expecting a specific group of people to accept you as a sexual partner. Is this the difference between male and female socialisation? Because i honestly don't think it would cross my mind to expect that. I'm overweight, a lot of men and women don't find that attractive in a sexual partner. I don't go round calling them discriminatory and expecting them to have sex with me based on my personality.

Now if someone rejected me for a job I was perfectly capable of because I was fat, that would be discrimination, and I would always support any transwoman or transman facing that type of situation.

But our personal and sexual relationships are exactly that, surely? No one has any right to a sexual relationship with anyone.

Cheby
No one has any right to a sexual relationship with anyone.
Yep! That's it. And it's a sign of how distorted and bizarre gender issues have made our thinking that it even needs saying.

venus
You really do have an odd way of looking at things.

Actually I don't. But I do have an ability to look at issues from different perspectives.

Why would a trans woman be interested in why a lesbian wouldn't sleep with trans women, if it wasn't an expectation they had?

Because wondering and expecting are two different things. One is legitimate, the other is not.

Because somebody wondering why they struggle to find a partner from the pool of people they are attracted to is part of the human condition - it's universal, and not specific to transwomen. Have you never encountered people who talk about their difficulty in finding someone who they are attracted to, and who is attracted to them? It's a hugely common thing, irrespective of anatomy and sexual orientation.

But why do they specifically want to sleep with lesbians rather than straight or bisexual women?

Well that's sorted then, transwomen can stop wondering whether lesbians as a collective are interested in having sex with them.
They can find some lovely persons, bisexual or other.

X post! That was to fascicle.

Are you really saying that men should need to explore why lesbians don't want to sleep with them? That this is something that needs a lot of exploration and understanding? Because you're coming across as really homophobic with you supposedly innocent "but it can't hurt to ask" faux naivety

Surely it's such a small amount of hardcore trans activists that believe in the cotton ceiling that it's not really worth turning this thread, about the IOC ruling, into another one of those threads. It's just a few extremists with some laughable ideas of self entitlement and they aren't the views of most sane people (trans or not).

faux naivety

Yes! I was going to use those exact same words in a post to Fascicle, then forgot to include them. I'm glad other people see it too.

The thing that really hits home to me with this debate is that male entitlement is just such an incredible force, isn't it?

It can withstand invasive surgery, extensive hormone treatment, someone changing their feelings and identity. And lo! a woman is made, transwomen can free themselves from the shackles of competing alongside men in society and in sporting arenas. Wonderful.

And yet....

That male entitlement that comes with having grown up with male privilege? BOOM! Here it is utterly undiminished apparently - transwomen shamelessly using it to demand that they are permitted to steal women's achievements from them.

The more I read the further my jaws have dropped.

Up until a couple of days ago I was one of the large number of MNetters whose eyes glazed over every time the word 'trans' appeared in a thread title.

We absolutely have to keep shouting out that this is WRONG.

This is shocking, as the poster above says I have steered clear of any trans threads as I find all the terminology, in fact the whole subject, so so confusing. But I have read these IOC threads and it is just awful. I explained the issue to DP using the Usian Bolt analogy posted earlier and even he seems surprised and worried.

Venus, i went with 'disingenuous'

I'd already used "disingenuous" once to Fascicle, it gets boring

We're gonna have to do some thesaurus-ising. Cause their posts arent getting any less faux naive

Quite

Deliberately obtuse?

Takeaway coming for dinner - tandoori chicken starter, butter chicken, cauliflower bhaji and bhindi bhaji. Will half it all and have the rest tomorrow :)

Haha, bollocks, wrong thread!!

Has this thread died because you've all moved to Facebook? If so, that's a huge shame because some of us don't have FB and also it seems like you are afraid to debate these issues in public. As a corollary to that, other women (and lurking men) will miss out. I've gained a much broader understanding of the related issues from recent MN trans threads, particularly because MN is one of the few places they are being discussed - the mainstream media, Twitter and most of the remaining public sphere remain curiously silent on this. I find it all a bit depressing really.

I think you have a point Rom, the debate has moved as there is more room for free discussion. As you don't have FB, I'll raise it.

That said there is a whole lot of discussion on Twitter from both sides.

I've received no reply so far from my PMs asking about joining the FB group. Could you check your inboxes, NickiFury and Fidel1ine?

There is no fear in debating in public Rom. Ask away.