Continuation thread re IOC/trans policy and related trans issues

[fidel1ne]

Also a plug for the FB group

www.facebook.com/groups/ATWIWS/

I don't have any specific questions now, but I've been reading this thread and its predecessor with interest. Seems a shame it's died on its arse, that's all.

Rom You have a valid point, why has it gone quiet/ gone off screen?

Perhaps it is safer to do so..

I think another point is that there are lots of threads related to trans/women's rights. There is a long running general one in FWR (General Trans Thread) but I do see the issue.

I too wondered why the threads had all gone quiet, didn't cross my mind about Facebook ! I'm not on Facebook or Twitter so I can only get info from the threads.

Same here.

I'm on FB -- the page is very active, but I also find the issue makes me gnash my teeth too much to be on every thread.

Rom, the site stuff thread is still going, this one was always a bit quieter. I'm still here :)

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is periods. I've heard at least two top tennis players say they struggle to play when they have their period. They feel weak, cramps, headaches. They still compete but do worse then there normal ranking and it also effects thier training. This issue won't effect any trans women.

Not just periods, but any gynae issues. Think of women returning to sport after pregnancy or miscarriage. Trying to return whilst breatsfeeding. Think of all the additional risks of prolapse etc that males dont have.

And thinking of pregnancy, bear in mind that you dint just have to get fit again after carrying a baby, your body may have changed shape completely.

Math
"but I also find the issue makes me gnash my teeth too much to be on every thread."
Same here. And I'm having absolutely nil success getting anyone else to be interested- talking to DDs, emailing friends, posting on other comment sections... Tumbleweed.

Yes pregnancy is a huge one too. Realistically it's at least 12 months of not performing at your peak while some man is just taking hormones.

Also not received a reply to PM about the FB group, I know you've probably got loads so I'm happy to wait patiently, just don't forget about me please.

And I'm having absolutely nil success getting anyone else to be interested

Face to face I am managing to make some headway by reminding people of the masculinised female athletes of the 70s/80s and pointing out that young men have no special dispensation from the "winning at all costs" effect.

I am underlining that it won't just affect young men "somewhere else" this time and the boys of today where we are have no special immunity from the unintended consequences of this ruling. Becuase in order to stand a chance against athletes from countries which are not averse to arm twisting athletes into taking every advantage they can, the sports landscape where we are will be softened into doing likewise. Becuase seeking hormonal changes won't be viewed as cheating and the chances of having a winner in your stable are much reduced unless you take your own turn in levelling the new playing field. Which is rendered more palatable an option now that feminised males are celebrated/garner attention (and potentially future sponsorship deals too) in a way that masculinised women never were, and probably never will be.

That seems to have an impact on people I am taking to in a way that pointing out women will be disadvantaged does not. But that might not work for people arguing elsewhere, cos I live somewhere that most of you would consider "unevolved" in terms of sexual equality. Which used to rankle. But right now I am finding that under evolved can sometimes be a saner place than over egged "evolution". A case of pick your least bitter poison.

But yeah... talking more about what this might mean for boys is getting me further than talking about what it might mean for girls. What a shocker. Not. But I need a hook to get people listening and this works. Once the ear is engaged I can add female disadvantage into the mix and have a better chance of it being heard.

At this point I want to win more than I want to win based solely on arguments that pertain to my sex's continued erosion of hard won rights and recognition as equally important. Plus as a mother of a teenage boy who wants a professional sporting career, I am kind of interested in any new forms of potential abuse f young athlete by management/sporting bodies that may form part of his future "life obstacle course".

People keep saying "well when it comes to it, they won't really let transmen compete in the women's categories, that would obviously not be fair"

The problem is that "fair" is subjective.

If an exploitative male has a testosterone reading below 10 nmol/L, he will be able to compete as a female.

The IOC have suggested that each sporting body retain the ability to evaluate on a case-by-case basis.

So Usain Bolt (extreme example, but let's go with it....) lowers his testosterone (who knows, he might already be within the threshold) and wants to compete as female. It will be patently obvious to everyone and anyone that even if his muscles get a bit smaller (and note: there is no requirement to do so; within 12 months on presumably a maintenance regime, not an "atrophy" regime), that he retains an unfair advantage.

So he wins. Easily. And the IAAF say "Oooh, hang on, that's not right, is it? I mean, I know we said all this about testosterone, but we didn't mean for this to happen". So they exclude Bolt from female competition because he has an unfair advantage. But they wouldn't exclude a 6'5'' born female for having the very same advantages as trans-Usain Bolt - height, long long legs, great muscle tone and a testosterone reading of 9.9 nmol/L. Usain Bolt would be excluded only because he is trans, and that will create a massive uproar.

The IOC may have cited a "get out clause" but their own recommendations - that testosterone is the only differentiator - means it can never be evoked.

The only way he could demonstrate that he doesn't retain an unfair advantage is by losing. And frankly, that's not a satisfactory outcome for trans athletes either, that only if they are shit will they be allowed to compete.

I'm not keen on pushing the unfairness of either periods or pregnancy in this context.

If periods are affecting your ability to compete, it's against both women who aren't on their period and transwomen. And there are means to delay/temporarily stop.

Same for pregnancy. Nobody has the right to have their competitiveness after pregnancy maintained by tailoring the competition, IMO. A recently pregnant woman is competing against a field that will contain an awful lot of not recently pregnant women.

So a woman who takes testosterone and raises her levels to 9.5 will be eliminated for drug cheating, but a man with a testosterone level of 9.5 who identifies as female can compete?

What's the difference aside from one hormone is innately produced and one is taken in pill form?

One is considered performance enhancing, one is considered performance worsening.

The key issue is that for this debate, absolute performance to the peak of ones abilities is not the same as 'competitiveness'.

A male can diminish his performance but increase his competitiveness.

But if raising your level artificially is seen as performance enhancing - ie gives unfair advantage over those with lower levels - how can it be fair that a man who has the same level (whether naturally low for a male or diminished by hormones) is not also seen to be at unfair advantage?

Men vs men. Women vs women. Trans in their own category (and changing rooms).

I can add people to the FB group if you pm me.

This is a great piece which sums up what I've been trying to say
https://notthenewsinbriefs.wordpress.com/2016/01/16/we-are-all-non-binary-now/

This is a good one

"Non-binary" is the biggest load of attention seeking special snowflakery bullshit. It (along with many of the self-identified people who "identify" as the opposite sex, IMO) is piggybacking on the serious issue of the mental health condition of gender dysphoria, which is the only reason why people don't point and laugh more.

Yes, Scorpio. I think we are all non binary, most of us don't require a special snowflake label for it!

Also I'm not clear on what "non-binary" activists are advocating for in practical terms exactly? Do they want to walk into any sex segregated space whenever they feel like it?

I imagine plenty of genuine (not just shit stirrers who like abusing women on twitter) trans people might have a problem with that!