Continuation thread re IOC/trans policy and related trans issues

[fidel1ne]

Also a plug for the FB group

www.facebook.com/groups/ATWIWS/

I've never heard of anyone switching sides in that direction before.

I've tried out the scenario on a few people of Usain Bolt lining up as a woman in the 2020 Olympics simply by self identifying and getting his testosterone levels down to the lower male limit and everyone thinks I'm making it up.
I think lots of people aren't paying attention because it's being cleverly marketed as a trans issue and not a women's rights issue.

Great post Queen, you explained it better than me!

venus
and yet thinks being quizzed about whether he would perform cunnilingus on a trans man is a totally outrageous suggestion because he's gay

I presume you're referring to this tweet from Owen Jones:

she asked two gay men when did they last performed cunnilingus. Glad that amuses you.

I wouldn't describe that in terms of total outrage.

Thanks for the link, Cote d'Azur. It's as I suspected - he didn't suggest that lesbians should accept transwomen as sexual partners and the cunnilingus question was completely unjustified.

He went on in more than one tweet about how unreasonable a question it was for a gay man. He made a big deal out of it.

Why would the cunnilingus question be "completely unjustified"? He thinks it's bigoted to say trans women aren't women. It's a reasonable point to request a clarification on, especially when you are aware of the context of the cotton ceiling.

Read QueenStromba' s post, she put it better than me, as I've already said.

"he didn't suggest that lesbians should accept transwomen as sexual partners and the cunnilingus question was completely unjustified."

Apparently he said "transwomen are women, and you are a transphobe if you don't believe so" or something to that effect.

Then someone asked how he would like to perform cunnilingus on a transman.

The question is perfectly justified. If transwomen are women, then transmen are men. And if he is attracted to men, he should not have a problem with a transman's vagina.

The question and Owen's horror at it easily demonstrates the double standards at work. Owen is supposed to understand from this that transwomen are not the same thing as women, just like transmen are not the same thing as men.

The question wasn't unjustified - it was just a way of asking the question 'do you really believe that trans people are the sex they claim to be?' that actually gives an honest answer. If he doesn't really believe that trans people are the sex they claim to be then he's a massive hypocrite for calling other people who don't believe it either transphobes.

Exactly stromba and cote

^ what they all said

Fascicle is now grumbling to themself "Yes but you can believe people to be of the sex they claim without having to perform oral ssx on them"
Because sex and sex are totes unrelated right?

The Owen Jones debacle arose in the context of him championing the opinions of a very prominent transactivist, Stavvers, who has written extensively about the cotton ceiling and how it is transphobic of lesbians to refuse to have penetrative sex with transwomen. Perhaps the question should have been phrased impersonally as "If you accept Stavvers' views on the cotton ceiling as pertaining to lesbians, what are your views on whether gay men should be prepared to perform cunnilingus on pre-operative transmen?" But in the context it was a reasonable question to ask, and could have had any one of three answers: (a) "much as I like a lot of Stavvers' writing I don't go along with them on this one," (b) "yes to gay people of both sexes being indifferent to the bodily makeup of the people they have sex with" or (c) "of course lesbians should be called transphobes for not wanting sex with lady penises, but I'm a man and it's therefore different." He simply refused to give an answer.

Lots of complaining that there is no official petition on the other thread. Do you think we should put one together?

Yep.

It'll be interesting to see if the WEP reply to this or whether they decide it's just too difficult. They have already set out their stance that a woman is anyone who feels like a woman, so I guess that's their answer

They didnt answer when i asked on the day it was announced, herm :(

BBA I didn't know that.

The WEP have shown themselves to be completely useless. If you can't even work out what the word "woman" means, how can you hope to have a single sensible approach to increasing equality?

No response from the T WEP yet...

LurcioAgain
The Owen Jones debacle arose in the context of him championing the opinions of a very prominent transactivist, Stavvers, who has written extensively about the cotton ceiling and how it is transphobic of lesbians to refuse to have penetrative sex with transwomen.

Thanks. Hadn't heard of Stavvers and can't find the relevant document(s) - context is everything. What I would say is that I've found other references by trans people to the 'cotton ceiling', but not as described on these threads, or as you have done above. It's a very poor choice of term, but descriptions I've encountered are more along the lines of questioning why a transwoman might be ruled out as potential partners by lesbians. That, to me, is significantly different to an expectation or perceived right, which would indeed be very wrong.

He simply refused to give an answer.

I'm not surprised, for a number of reasons. Your rephrasing sounds far more reasonable, although the unnecessary/irrelevant oral sex reference is still included. I suppose without it, there's not much shock factor.

why a transwoman might be ruled out as potential partners by lesbians. That, to me, is significantly different to an expectation or perceived right, which would indeed be very wrong.

Gosh, I wonder why a man might be ruled out by a lesbian as a potential partner? Can only be bigotry.

"questioning why a transwoman might be ruled out as potential partners by lesbians. That, to me, is significantly different to an expectation or perceived right, which would indeed be very wrong"

Why would someone question your rejection of a group of people as sexual partners, if they thought that you have a right to reject them?

i dont get what is hard to understand about the majority of lesbians wanting to have relationships with women. Women-women, not transwomen.

It's pure madness. Nobody bats an eyelid that I'm not attracted to black men but if I was a lesbian I'd have to justify not wanting to sleep with someone who was born with a penis.