To think that this is the end of women's athletics?

[fidel1ne]

And women's international sport generally?

Transgender competitors will be allowed to compete as the gender of their choosing pre-operatively and after just one year of hormone treatment.

womb, this is just the latest. Women's prisons, women's shelters, women's anything exists at the discretion of biological men if we accept "feels like" to be the ultimate arbiter of what makes a woman.

And that flies in the face of all the work that has been done to undermine gender stereotypes. Think you can be an athlete and a woman? Screw that, you'll get beaten by any man who "feels like" a woman. In other words, know your place.

mummyI've asked you once and I'll ask you again what is an intrinsic feeling? A lot of what you state, -when asked of others would be the same. There is no need,for you to compare to others. Seriously, dress whatever you will. You will have my support in that.

woman, I'd love to start a parliamentary petition on "people for the recognition of basic sex biology in sport", but I'm pretty scared of being hounded. Though I reckon we could reach at least the minimum requirement for consideration.

Just posted this on the other thread about this:

Just in case anyone needs to include in a letter/facebook post etc a general link very clearly laying out all the issues for women and the threat to women's rights, this is a really good blog post linked to earlier on the general FWR trans issues thread:

stephaniedaviesarai.com/cwc/uncategorized/maria-millers-report-puts-feminists-in-an-impossible-position/

Never mind what it feels like to be a woman... what's it feel like to be a bloke? I mean, how would I know if I was always a bloke but never realised until now?

I think if I had been born a guy I would have been pretty much the same person & just got on with it. As it is, I got boobs & periods rather than muscles & ejaculations.

Are most TG people gay? (as in they are attracted to the biologically opposite sex?) Seems like it online. Why would most TG people be gay?

Yep, Bruce jenner seems very nurturing, as does Fallon fox
Tara Hudson, obviously a nurturing individual
Bloody hell. Really?
I am quite nurturing, I like make up, I bake cakes.
It is possible that these things are so because I am a woman and have been socialised as such.
But they do not make me a woman. And the absence of them wouldn't make me a man.

Womb's last paragraph is a total lightbulb moment for me.

I also see this as part of the long history of science being used to keep women in their place. What's the betting that the IOC 's advisory board on this is mostly men/transwomen?

Not sure why the link didn't work:

stephaniedaviesarai.com/cwc/uncategorized/maria-millers-report-puts-feminists-in-an-impossible-position/

Excellent, thoughtful post womb

Mummyusername, take a look at some transgender message boards (I’m not sure if it’s appropriate for me to name any of them here). I did, and it really opened my eyes. Many trans women say that they never “felt like a girl” at any point during their childhoods. But once they hit puberty, they started to feel aroused by the idea of imagining themselves as women, wearing women’s underwear, etc. I was surprised by the number of them who admitted that they didn’t really “feel like a woman” in any other way – it’s more of a fetish than anything else. Most of them are attracted to women and have a fixation on female bodies – they feel turned on by the idea of growing breasts, they get erections when they get called “she” or “ma’am”. They feel excited at the thought of accessing private women’s areas such as bathrooms or changing rooms, or invading women’s privacy (stealing their underwear, for example). Often they reassure each other that this is perfectly normal, and that it proves they’re real women, because “cis” women get turned on when they put on skirts or lingerie, too.

Also – most of them don’t seem to want surgery. They don’t believe they have “messed-up genitalia”. They believe that they simple have female penises. They believe it’s bigoted to say that a penis is a male body part.

If this sounds too far-fetched, find some trans forums via Google and see for yourself. I never would have believed it, either. The medical community refers to this kind of fetish as autogynephilia. Not all trans women feel this way, but a lot of them do.

Surgeries have a long way to go, but sex hormones, we've pretty much got a handle on and companies can make a profit from charging for artificial ones -- what a coincidence that these are the exact things that now determine your very maleness or femaleness.

Indeed, Womb. It's uncanny.

Think you can be an athlete and a woman? Screw that, you'll get beaten by any man who "feels like" a woman. In other words, know your place.

Nicely put.

It is an eye opener, when you look at transgender/cis/terf tweets. Be prepared to fall through the rabbit hole...

Often they reassure each other that this is perfectly normal, and that it proves they’re real women, because “cis” women get turned on when they put on skirts or lingerie, too.

We do? Really?
Yeah, wearing a skirt really turns me on

Frightening to think rubbish like that is what people think is going on in the female mind.

Wonder if mummy is familiar with the case of Stefonknee?

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3356084/I-ve-gone-child-Husband-father-seven-52-leaves-wife-kids-live-transgender-SIX-YEAR-OLD-girl-named-Stefonknee.html

Apols for DM link. Love to hear your thoughts, mummy.

Ugh...stefonknee. Maybe he should be allowed to attend school and take part in a school sports day seeing as he identifies as a 6 year old?

Yes, clearly she should have access to all the facilities a six year old girl would. I'm sure mummy would agree.

I've just emailed the Jeremy Vine show on Radio 2 to suggest they debate the Olympic Committee's decision. It does seem ridiculously unfair to women athletes.

biscuit join us in twitter

"Something occurred to me the other day. If it's OK to give people hormones of people of the opposite sex to their genitalia (if you still believe in the hopelessly old-fashioned notion of genitalia being linked to sex) in order to help them look and feel and act more like the sex they think they are, why is it morally wrong to give them hormones of their own sex, to make them look and feel and act more like the sex they actually are?

Why is one progressive and the other barbaric? How come the medical profession don't have a moral objection to one, but overwhelmingly (rightly in my opinion) would have an objection to the other?"

Good points Basil,

And great post, Womb.

Some people feel things more strongly so maybe some people go around all day long not feeling like a woman or whatever, I don't know cos I'm not them so I don't presume to dictate what they should call themselves or what gender role they should choose if they indeed decide to choose any.

You say you saying you don't know how others think about being a woman, because you are not them, is a very good point.

By the same logic you just used, a man can not possibly know what it feels like to be a woman, because he isn't one. I don't know what it feels like to be a woman ffs, I only know what it feels like to be, i can talk about shared experiences with other women, but I'm struggling to think of a shared experience I have that relates directly to being a woman, that isn't defined by our sex.

My body is what makes me a women, and I've had some not very nice experiences because of this body, if I said I felt like a man, it would have made no difference, because my sex is what defines how some people have treat me, not how I feel inside.

Womb brilliant post. I hadn't spotted that connection before, but it looks like a light bulb moment now you've said it.

Venus I don't think I can stomach that link, simply based on how the URL is put together. Surely it can't be as bad as it sounds?

Valanice - hell's teeth, that's scary. So as a sex we face being exposed to these men in schools, hospitals, prisons, refuges, toilets; we are losing the right to be protected from sexual assault and voyeurism, and all because a particularly vociferous group of biological males get turned on by dressing up in stereotypical women's clothing and invading our spaces?

Ok, a question. A male high school PE teacher decides to identify as female. No reassignment surgery, no hormones, no name change-he just feels like a woman now. So that means the transperson is legally regarded as a woman, and the transperson's job must change to reflect that, as in high schools women teach PE to girls and men teach PE to boys.

Schools presumably cannot discriminate against this person who is legally recognised as a woman, and so... what next? What is there to stop a man who isn't genuinely trans but does want an excuse to be in the changing room with 14 year old girls from saying that, despite biology, he's actually a woman and therefore has every right to be there?

"don't really see how that's more reasonable than someone saying they don't want lesbians in the changing room because lesbians fancy women, are usually more butch than hetero women and therefore are likely to make a successful attack on hetero women.

You are the only one that brought this issue to the fore."

I don't think she did. Mummy reperesents lots of people out there. Attacking her, laughing at her, shutting her down isn't going to change the views of all the people out there who don't really think about this day in a day out. I think that tone is just going to backfire.

Isn't Stefoknee in a relationship with his "adoptive father"? Anyway, don't want to derail the thread but he is truly disturbing

So how do folk join you in Twitter?