Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

To think that this is the end of women's athletics?

1000 replies

fidel1ne · 23/01/2016 21:38

And women's international sport generally?

Transgender competitors will be allowed to compete as the gender of their choosing pre-operatively and after just one year of hormone treatment.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
NormaStanleyFletcher · 25/01/2016 23:50

V good post womb

Cellardoor1 · 25/01/2016 23:51

Yes he is Calla and he role plays having sex with him as a 6 year old girl. Apparently there is an actual child living in the house too, the granddaughter of the "adopted father". It's very disturbing

shins · 25/01/2016 23:57

Womb, thank you, great post. I've posted on FB, got some predictable attacks but I'm 40something and cranky and thickskinned so I don't care about that. I'm a feminist and always will be so fuck anyone who thinks that's a bit 1974 and has moved on to shinier, more sexy causes!

Inertia · 25/01/2016 23:58

That's horrific .

venusinscorpio · 26/01/2016 00:15

Attacking her, laughing at her, shutting her down isn't going to change the views of all the people out there who don't really think about this day in a day out. I think that tone is just going to backfire.

No you're probably right, point taken. I think people just get very frustrated by the general level of ignorance, dismissiveness, confusion and apathy around women's very valid concerns about this, and the depiction of it by the media. I wonder what exactly it will take for people to wake up.

Valanice1989 · 26/01/2016 00:19

"We do? Really?
Yeah, wearing a skirt really turns me on hmm

Frightening to think rubbish like that is what people think is going on in the female mind."

When "cis" women point this out to them, they're accused of being A) liars, B) repressed, or C) closeted trans men in denial.

It makes absolutely no sense. If I believed that I had the brain/soul/whatever of a man, I would be interested in the opinions of MEN, not a bunch of other women who "feel like men". I would explain my reasons for thinking I was mentally/spiritually male, and if all those men said, "No, we don't feel that way," I can't imagine turning round and saying, "You're bigots, I know more about how it feels to be a man than any of you do."

ShadowsCollideIsSurroundedByAd · 26/01/2016 00:24

I've been reading this thread for two days now, and have been trying to find the words to describe how I feel, but I just can't. I'm furious, and frustrated, and wanting to shout about this. I tend to be quite vocal on FB, I don't censor my beliefs. I'm in Ireland, and am seriously pro choice, so I post about Irish women's right to abortion, a lot. Essentially, I'm a great big leftie.

However, on this issue, I have silenced myself, as I know what the backlash will be. I will be attacked, accused of being transphobic and a TERF. I've seen it being done to other people.

This post, by Inertia says it all, and yes, I'm going to repost the whole post, so accurate was it.

This is like manna from heaven for all the men who think women have got too big for their boots, what with all our 'equal rights' and everything. There would be all sorts of legal pitfalls if women were discriminated against by explicitly withdrawing the equal opportunities, rights and services that women are entitled to.

Instead, women are losing our rights because a particularly vociferous group have decided to redefine women as a subset of men. And not just any old subset, we are now a subset who had better shut the fuck up about our own biology, our own reproductive health, our own maternity-based rights - even our right to choose who to have sex with - because men who feel like women don't have those issues so talking about them is either triggering or irrelevant or transphobic.

And so those of us who have always considered ourselves feminists but never really got involved in campaigning begin to realise how far down the slope women's rights have slipped, and realise that actually we need to start adding our voices. But I'm terrified of the repercussions. I'm too frightened to speak out in real life -partly because women who do speak out are subjected to threats of violence and rape which seem to go unchallenged, but mainly because I have daughters, and I would genuinely fear for their safety.

Meanwhile, men-who-identify-as-transwomen are gaining access to refuges and assaulting women. Men-who-identify-as-transwomen are raping girls and women and then demanding access to women's prisons because they now feel like women (and don't want the same brutal treatment from other men that they are quite happy to dish out themselves, and of course the free access to vulnerable women is a bonus). And the statistics become utterly meaningless, because it's 'women' that commit the crimes.

And anyone who protests that actually women should have the right to be safe and choose their own sexual partners is called a bigot, or threatened with exactly the same sort of sexual violence that we're trying to raise awareness of - yet nobody seems to grasp the irony of men-who-identify-as-women who want access to women's safe spaces using the threat of male-perpetuated sexual violence to intimidate women who protest against men entering women's safe spaces.

How can groups of women act to protect ourselves and one another?

(The craziest thing is I've just had to go back and edit so as not to be accused of misgendering by calling a convicted rapist a man).

Like Puntastic, I have the group page opened in another tab. I'm nervous of joining it, as I'm sure that there will be a backlash if the group name shows up on my newsfeed. Specifically multiple posts on my FB accusing me of being transphobic and a TERF. I have seen it happen to other friends. I really want to speak out on this issue, but feel like I'm being silenced.

shins · 26/01/2016 00:27

The greatest allies seem to be unthinking women who believe this is like the gay rights movement for example. And don't see the very serious implications it has for all women. It's amazing.

shins · 26/01/2016 00:32

Shadows I'm Irish too. I think it's very polarised here because we have some genuinely unpleasant religious nutjobs on one hand and the Righteous People on the other and there's no nuance allowed. I too am a terf and a transphobe and oh yeah, a racist because I dared to mention the Cologne attacks. I got private messages about the latter from women saying thanks for bringing it up, but not wanting to get involved. So you're not alone.

venusinscorpio · 26/01/2016 00:39

It makes absolutely no sense. If I believed that I had the brain/soul/whatever of a man, I would be interested in the opinions of MEN, not a bunch of other women who "feel like men". I would explain my reasons for thinking I was mentally/spiritually male, and if all those men said, "No, we don't feel that way," I can't imagine turning round and saying, "You're bigots, I know more about how it feels to be a man than any of you do."

That's why I see it as a sort of collectively narcissistic, self-reinforcing delusional mental health issue. Like you I've read a lot of blogs/comments/tweets etc claiming to be by trans people, and in general I find these have a serious lack of understanding of other people's viewpoints, their rights to hold them, and boundaries. Even the more moderate ones.

venusinscorpio · 26/01/2016 00:45

yet nobody seems to grasp the irony of men-who-identify-as-women who want access to women's safe spaces using the threat of male-perpetuated sexual violence to intimidate women who protest against men entering women's safe spaces.

They and their hard of thinking allies have no sense of irony whatsoever. They can earnestly bleat on about "transface" when Eddie Redmayne plays the Danish Girl (Guardian comments). Hmmm.

PlonitbatPlonit · 26/01/2016 00:50

Thought this might be a welcome interlude. I loved Phranc, and this is one of my favourites

ObsidianBlackbirdMcNight · 26/01/2016 02:22

Transface ShockHmm

TheNewStatesman · 26/01/2016 05:00

"I identify as being right in this argument, so I want all the feminists and PC lunatics to STFU"

Best. Post. On. This. Thread.

TheNewStatesman · 26/01/2016 05:05

I always post this link in discussions about transgenderism, but this site is really, really worth a read:

sillyolme.wordpress.com/faq-on-the-science/

It is actually written by a transwoman (of the early-transitioning, sexually-attracted-to-men type).

She gives a really clear, simple and interesting explanation of the two types of transwomen--the early-transtioning ones and the late-transitioning ones. Completely different groups of people, in biological, sociological and neurological terms.

I am mostly happy to accept the first type as women in the social sense (though I will always insist on the right to make distinctions between natal women and them). The vast majority of these transwomen just live quietly and undercover. Most of us will have worked or studied alongside at least one at some time in our lives without ever being aware of their Y chromosomes.

The second groupthe late-transitioners, who are sexually attracted to women rather than men, and who appear to be a kind of extreme manifestation of cross-dressingis the one I have "problems" with. And it is mostly members of this group who causing problems for women--including in the sports arena.

fidel1ne · 26/01/2016 05:47

it’s more of a fetish than anything else. Most of them are attracted to women and have a fixation on female bodies – they feel turned on by the idea of growing breasts, they get erections when they get called “she” or “ma’am”. They feel excited at the thought of accessing private women’s areas such as bathrooms or changing rooms, or invading women’s privacy (stealing their underwear, for example). Often they reassure each other that this is perfectly normal, and that it proves they’re real women, because “cis” women get turned on when they put on skirts or lingerie, too.

Also – most of them don’t seem to want surgery. They don’t believe they have “messed-up genitalia”. They believe that they simple have female penises. They believe it’s bigoted to say that a penis is a male body part.

If this sounds too far-fetched, find some trans forums via Google and see for yourself. I never would have believed it, either. The medical community refers to this kind of fetish as autogynephilia. Not all trans women feel this way, but a lot of them do.

What!? That's common? Disturbing isn't a strong enough word Shock

OP posts:
fidel1ne · 26/01/2016 05:49

Valanice could you PM me some links please?

I don't want to get sidetracked for three hours googling and I really don't want to google 'female penis' either.

OP posts:
fidel1ne · 26/01/2016 06:10

I've started a poll thread as a 'show of hands' exercise. It would be great if everyone could pop over and vote;

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/2557132-Please-could-we-have-a-quick-poll-about-the-Olympic-committees-trans?watched=1

OP posts:
Katenka · 26/01/2016 06:52

know I'm not a man due to my body admittedly and I suppose a nurturing nature that I associate with being female

mummy is clearly far too wrapped up in social constructs to debate this issue with. All this talk of women being butch and being untiring making you female. My dh is very nurturing, as is his dad. Does that mean he isn't a man?

I am interested in if why TW have female brains (no evidence of this at all) why they don't have female hormones already?

katenka, I'm glad the people at your dojo are on side. I wonder how this works at grass roots in other sports - most people I know who work in coaching kids would (I think) be outraged, cos the difference between boys and girls is often evident before puberty even hits.

Many will be appalled. Many have spent time getting girls and women involved in twice sport and this is being taken away.

Imustgodowntotheseaagain · 26/01/2016 06:57

Someone mentioned upthread about Caitlin Jenner. Aren't they a big golfer? And 2016 is the year golf is coming back to the Olympics? Am I making too big a leap to think that we'll see Jenner competing as a woman in Rio...

fidel1ne · 26/01/2016 06:57

Many have spent time getting girls and women involved in twice sport and this is being taken away.

That's a great point. Female participation in sport is still so low. Didn't the recent post-London 2012 government push miss its target? How much harder will it be to involve girls in sport if the top tiers of achievement become unavailable to them? This will do immediate damage to amateur and school sport, throughout the age ranges.

OP posts:
EmpressOfTheVulvaCupcakes · 26/01/2016 07:14

Bambambini, you were asking about Twitter. Maybe start by following the authors of the blogs on this thread.

SSargassoSea · 26/01/2016 07:38

I don't know anything about this but as there have been drug tests etc for years surely a woman with unusually high testosterone levels would have been flagged as drug taking.

hollowlegs · 26/01/2016 08:15

Shadows, I agree, this is worth re-posting.
(still think the views are all equal MN?)

This is like manna from heaven for all the men who think women have got too big for their boots, what with all our 'equal rights' and everything. There would be all sorts of legal pitfalls if women were discriminated against by explicitly withdrawing the equal opportunities, rights and services that women are entitled to.

Instead, women are losing our rights because a particularly vociferous group have decided to redefine women as a subset of men. And not just any old subset, we are now a subset who had better shut the fuck up about our own biology, our own reproductive health, our own maternity-based rights - even our right to choose who to have sex with - because men who feel like women don't have those issues so talking about them is either triggering or irrelevant or transphobic.

And so those of us who have always considered ourselves feminists but never really got involved in campaigning begin to realise how far down the slope women's rights have slipped, and realise that actually we need to start adding our voices. But I'm terrified of the repercussions. I'm too frightened to speak out in real life -partly because women who do speak out are subjected to threats of violence and rape which seem to go unchallenged, but mainly because I have daughters, and I would genuinely fear for their safety.

Meanwhile, men-who-identify-as-transwomen are gaining access to refuges and assaulting women. Men-who-identify-as-transwomen are raping girls and women and then demanding access to women's prisons because they now feel like women (and don't want the same brutal treatment from other men that they are quite happy to dish out themselves, and of course the free access to vulnerable women is a bonus). And the statistics become utterly meaningless, because it's 'women' that commit the crimes.

And anyone who protests that actually women should have the right to be safe and choose their own sexual partners is called a bigot, or threatened with exactly the same sort of sexual violence that we're trying to raise awareness of - yet nobody seems to grasp the irony of men-who-identify-as-women who want access to women's safe spaces using the threat of male-perpetuated sexual violence to intimidate women who protest against men entering women's safe spaces.

How can groups of women act to protect ourselves and one another?

hollowlegs · 26/01/2016 08:19

Like Puntastic, I have the group page opened in another tab. I'm nervous of joining it, as I'm sure that there will be a backlash if the group name shows up on my newsfeed. Specifically multiple posts on my FB accusing me of being transphobic and a TERF. I have seen it happen to other friends. I really want to speak out on this issue, but feel like I'm being silenced.

This is why high profile people need to add their voice.
But they won't.

Anybody else interested in hearing what Caitlin Jenner has to say on the matter?
This person is a former Olympian. I would be interested to hear what a former sports person/olympian has to say on the matter.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread