To think that this is the end of women's athletics?

[fidel1ne]

And women's international sport generally?

Transgender competitors will be allowed to compete as the gender of their choosing pre-operatively and after just one year of hormone treatment.

Is it not good for transwomen that they get something out of the rotten bad luck of being born with screwed up genitalia?

This assumes that biological sex is solely a question of genitalia, which is somewhat blinkered. Biological sex affects the development of the entire body: bone development and position (women's hands hang with palms inward to the thigh; men's don't), muscle mass etc ...

Furthermore, this is where testimony from transgender individuals who take cross hormones becomes very interesting because many report significant changes in the way they experience the world when on synthetic hormones: trans-women have reported feeling more "dreamy" and "unreal" when on estrogen; trans-men have reported experiencing the world in far more intense focus when on synthetic testosterone ... which, obviously, suggests they didn't actually have the "brain" of the opposite sex in the first place and didn't actually think or feel like the opposite sex in the first place.

"Read the thread before you drool on it, maybe"

I've been overthinking about this.

On one level, this is demeaning to trans women.
Assuming the abuse of this will be by male-identifying men abusing a loophole, rather than genuine transwomen, then that will surely trivialise the struggle the trans community say they experience, and undermine the genuineness of their 'being born in the wrong body' argument.
It moves the perception of trans from being 'brave' and transitioning from being something that has been a lifelong dream, to trans being an easy road to sporting stardom and possibly a transient state that can be reversed if they don't win enough change their mind.
A bit like going through that bi-curious phase at uni.
Some parts of the lesbian community dislike the effect on them of celebs having a 'lipstick lesbian' phase for publicity

I wonder if after the glow of this pathetic 'victory' has worn off, the trans community might realise this has the potential to be a spectacular own goal

Place marking. When I read the news about this I wanted to cry. Awful, awful decision.

There was a post on a since-expired chat thread with a link to the story of a young child (small penis ergo girl) being forced to have a M-F sex with regular "stretching" involved. The original poster's words still haunt me.

"Remember, this was done to a child in a medical environment no less, not in the basement of a sadistic paedophile"

Fucking awful.

And so is all this.

Given that MNHQ are deleting people for misgendering, perhaps they should give up their brand and domain name to make it more inclusive?

Something occurred to me the other day. If it's OK to give people hormones of people of the opposite sex to their genitalia (if you still believe in the hopelessly old-fashioned notion of genitalia being linked to sex) in order to help them look and feel and act more like the sex they think they are, why is it morally wrong to give them hormones of their own sex, to make them look and feel and act more like the sex they actually are?

Why is one progressive and the other barbaric? How come the medical profession don't have a moral objection to one, but overwhelmingly (rightly in my opinion) would have an objection to the other?

It is all about undermining women's rights, isn't it. It's instinctive.

Wonderfully nuanced and informative addition to the discussion there Maryz. Though I suppose you can hardly add anything to a discussion touching on what it means to be a woman when you can't comprehend that someone can be a woman yet have different opinions to you! I am a woman (born woman no less). Mind blowing stuff!

mummy I am really interested in your thoughts - what apart from your biology makes you feel like a woman? How do you know you're a woman?

Even Mathew Wright (who usually likes to nick ideas for his show from MN) seems too scared pussy to include this 'issue' on his show.

STOP!

Ive already said hermione that I presume it's not something I'm aware of as it's such an intrinsic part of me that's always been there as my body and brain match up. I know I'm not a man due to my body admittedly and I suppose a nurturing nature that I associate with being female, Some people feel things more strongly so maybe some people go around all day long not feeling like a woman or whatever. I don't know cos I'm not them so I don't presume to dictate what they should call themselves or what gender role they should choose if they indeed decide to choose any.

I suppose a nurturing nature that I associate with being female

Women who don't have nurturing natures - are they not women?

You're all right.

They can choose to act out whatever 'gender role' they choose.
They can't become biologically women. It's impossible.

What about men who are nurturing? Are they actually women?

To those saying "this doesn't matter because it will really only be a few people anyway": What no one talks about is that it doesn't matter if there are only a few trans competitors who end up actually competing in women's events. It doesn't matter if there are none.

Why? Because this change means that women's sport exists at the sole discretion of men. They can take it away whenever they wish. Train all your life, while you wait for the other shoe to drop, knowing that some man could drop his T and outcompete everyone competing in the prime years of your life.

Now, women's events and records will continue only so long as men choose to allow them. Get too uppity, start talking out of turn about how women are paid less in tournament play or how many women's team uniforms are demeaningly sexual in a way men's are not (ahem, beach volleyball!), and maybe you just don't need to be the best in your sport after all -- especially if you don't recognize your "femininity" and being ogled as the gift that it is.

Even if not one trans competitor enters the Rio Olympics, will people spend as much training their daughters in athletic competitions, assuming they were world-level athletes, knowing that men could barge in at any minute and take the biggest purses and collect all the medals?

The first time we see a bald bodybuilder with a clearly intact "package" medal at an Olympic event, maybe people will figure out that it's a problem. What they won't care about is the way that men have positioned themselves as the arbiter of womanhood, deciding spontaneously that hormone levels (something you couldn't even check on before seventy years ago) are the defining aspect of femaleness, rather than perceived reproductive capacity and genital configuration.

It's rather telling, isn't it, that the moment we unraveled sex hormones and discovered they could generate certain secondary sex characteristics when used cross-sex, that one single element of male/female traits, the one it was possible for lifelong pharmaceutical therapy to change, became the sole arbiter we were allowed to admit to distinguish who was male and who was female. Surgeries have a long way to go, but sex hormones, we've pretty much got a handle on and companies can make a profit from charging for artificial ones -- what a coincidence that these are the exact things that now determine your very maleness or femaleness.

Venus thank you so much! I'll have a read through right away

I'm not very nurturing, but I'm still a woman! Because, you know, biology and all that.

This thread is not about feelings, but is about the fact that there is a biological difference between women and transwomen. And that the biological difference is likely to have an impact on fair competition. I am literally amazed that anyone would disagree!

katenka, I'm glad the people at your dojo are on side. I wonder how this works at grass roots in other sports - most people I know who work in coaching kids would (I think) be outraged, cos the difference between boys and girls is often evident before puberty even hits. But I'm a bit afraid to ask in case I come across as bigoted. Maybe it's time to be a more active women's rights advocate. I've never had any response from political engagement.

So you know you are a women because you have a female body.

WomofonesOwn,
your post makes for chilling reading.

To people joining this thread now, if you don't read any other post, at least read wombofonesown.

It puts things across so clearly.

It's really good to read how much opposition there is to this on MN.

Is anyone aware of a petition? If not, should we start one?