To think that this is the end of women's athletics?

[fidel1ne]

And women's international sport generally?

Transgender competitors will be allowed to compete as the gender of their choosing pre-operatively and after just one year of hormone treatment.

a person with Downs does have the required number of chromosomes in order to be a human btw.

Its a boy without a winkle

Bombadier
Quite.

Jess Ennis looks like a man?

Think I've heard it all now.

Trans women are not women, the clue's in the name there. Transwomen are not born with "messed up" genitalia, they are overwhelmingly born with the correct, functioning genitalia for their sex. What they do have is a mental health condition whereby they have the delusion that they were born in the wrong body. As a society, we believe there is a lesser harm done to those men by giving them access to sex reassignment surgery, that surgically alters their perfectly healthy genitalia to match up with their mind's eye.

However, the majority of trans folk have no surgery, or at the most top surgery for various, well documented reasons.

And if you're going to match people with chromosomes, then they have the correct genitals to match their chromosomal make up. Although nice attempt at an ablist segue there.

MRAs are already all over this. There are a couple of TW who run MRA groups, and the major MRE website is right behind them. So, they at least can see who's really benefitting from all this.

So Queen Stromba would MNHQ back this as a campaign because there certainly seems to be majority support.

It really is time the backlash began.

Otherwise the backlash will occur in a generation when a whole load of otherwise gay kids have been medically transitioned into a sterile life on hormones.

venusinscorpio the slower males wouldn't be allowed compete against women because they are not women (be that biologically female or transwomen)

I can see my point sailed over your head, mummyusername.

Mummyusername, you are confusing sex with gender. Sex is biological; it's a fact; it can't be altered. Gender is a set of oppressive stereotypes associated with the sexes but with with no basis in fact. No-one knows why some male sexed people choose to identify with the gender stereotypes associated with female sexed people, but just because they feel strongly about it does not mean their feelings supersede the biological facts of their sex.

Trans women are not male because of a biological screw up. They think they are female because of a psychological screw up. And it is every bit as impossible as me becoming a hummingbird.

If I identify as a hummingbird, that does not mean I suddenly weigh 25g, fly everywhere and live on nectar. Am I going to say that the reason I weigh 14 stone, have arms instead of wings and no feathers is because of a biological screw up and I am in fact a hummingbird? That's what the trans argument amounts to: making mad assertions to humour deluded people.

If you insist that people pretend I am in fact a hummingbird, so as not to hurt my feelings, you are basically saying they should pretend to agree with lies so as to be nice. That we should expand the definition of 'hummingbird' to include heavily built human females who cannot fly. Except you have to pretend I can fly, or stop talking about the flight of hummingbirds, as it's exclusionary to mention feathers or wings when some trans-hummingbirds like me don't have them.

That's what the trans argument boils down to; denying obvious biological facts to humour people who've claimed their delusion is a civil right.

Otherwise the backlash will occur in a generation when a whole load of otherwise gay kids have been medically transitioned into a sterile life on hormones.

I know. Organisations, opinion formers and media bodies (like MN, for example) really do need to have a little think about that likely scenario, before they enable a situation where it is brought about by their silence, because it's considered unpalatable to stick up for the rights of either women or children, so it ends up being completely whitewashed and misrepresented in the media as is currently happening. It's outrageous, really.

That's what the trans argument boils down to; denying obvious biological facts to humour people who've claimed their delusion is a civil right.

In an nutshell. And the amount of people who think this is a reasonable thing to expect is really quite scary.

"whole load of otherwise gay kids "

To be clear, trans women and trans men may be attracted to women or men; sexuality is different to gender identity.

I am scared about irrevocable biological effects on kids too though.

the slower males wouldn't be allowed compete against women because they are not women

Some misapprehension here, perhaps. The slower male only has to get his testosterone medically adjusted - to within the normal level for male humans - for 12 months prior to the qualifications.

Then he can compete against females.

He can get his hormones adjusted back up after the Olympics, then spend the final 12 months in the lower range to qualify again.

Throughout this time he will be bigger than a parallel female athlete, stronger, with longer limbs and larger hands/feet, a narrower pelvis and tougher ligaments.

Kid's with gender dysphoria generally grow up to be gay though.

I find myself wondering why they have opened up women's events to transwomen when they haven't allowed transabled people to compete in the paralympics.

m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/8109920

A canoeist who was barred from competing because her disability is psychological not physical.

It's 's a fair clarification Woman, but I think the main point is that gender non-conforming kids could be pressured by peers, parents, social media and medical/psychiatric people to declare themselves trans when they are not, for example when they are simply gay.

You can see this attitude now with the idea that toddlers might possibly be trans because they want to wear a pink dress or play with dolls. You are starting them down a route which is not particularly easy to step back from and i think it's deeply unethical when what it ultimately means is a life of taking hormones and sterility, and not being accepted fully in society.

I find myself wondering why they have opened up women's events to transwomen when they haven't allowed transabled people to compete in the paralympics.

I know Queen, me too. It's very unfair of them.

Maybe instead of having to come out as TERFs in real life we could instead campaign for the transabled to be allowed compete in the Paralympics and let people make their own minds up about how ridiculous the whole concept is.

ummyusername the problem with the 'biological screw up' argument is that there is literally no evidence for it. There is no evidence that a fully male human who feels like a woman is actually a woman in any sense at all.
There is no such thing as female brains in male bodies - it's a total myth.
Any male person who feels like they are actually a woman is either a person with extreme sex dysphoria (hates and cannot accept their biological sex) or a person with a delusion. Neither thing makes them actually a woman. There is no evidence that trans genderism is anything other than a psychological condition.

mummyusername please direct us to the medical research that proves there is a physiological cause for gender dysphoria.

I identify as being right in this argument, so I want all the feminists and PC lunatics to STFU

I've posted this before, i'll do so again, just for you mummy.

When a spermatozoa is being formed, during meiosis ii the chromosomes are divvied up. Some spermatids get an x and some get a y, which i'm sure you know is what causes biological sex.

Even if you do believe that it is possible for someones gender to be out of sync with their sex, it is simply incorrect to say they are in the wrong body.

If you believe in an innate gender, at what point is this gender formed? Because unless it is before the sperm is made, it is the wrong mind that is in the correct body. The majority of people who believe this state that something went "wrong" while the baby was in the womb. A little while later than spermatogenesis then...

I'm depressed beyond belief that people are sacred to publicly say that pre op trans women are biologically male and bigger and stronger than women.

How have we reached the point that this is even in dispute let alone cause of such fear??

Scared, not sacred obvs

This is becoming like the 'immigrant' debate. People are too scared to make an intelligent point in case they are branded 'racist'.