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To think that this is the end of women's athletics?

1000 replies

fidel1ne · 23/01/2016 21:38

And women's international sport generally?

Transgender competitors will be allowed to compete as the gender of their choosing pre-operatively and after just one year of hormone treatment.

OP posts:
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PuntasticUsername · 25/01/2016 16:08

I'm staring at the fb group now (ok, ok, in my other window) wanting to join it, but afraid to. How shit is that Sad

As it's a closed group, would my friends get something on their feed as usual to tell them I've joined, does anyone know?

rumbleinthrjungle · 25/01/2016 16:08

I'm not sure why you feel there is any "sticking point". It's perfectly simple to me.

I agree. I meant that is the point where the conflict starts about what is and is not acceptable for a woman to stand up for against the wishes of a trans woman.

Inertia · 25/01/2016 16:09

Rumble- nobody should be obliged to accept anybody as a potential date or sexual partner, regardless of gender /sex characteristics.

When we have lost the autonomy to decide who to have sexual relations with then we really will be back in the dark ages.

venusinscorpio · 25/01/2016 16:09

If I want or don't want to have sex with someone, that's entirely my business. Do you think men should examine their prejudices if they don't want to fuck Caitlyn Jenner?

venusinscorpio · 25/01/2016 16:10

The fact that you even think there is an issue is a big part of the problem.

venusinscorpio · 25/01/2016 16:14

It's not an issue. Some transactivists are homophobic misogynists with rapey logic. End of story. There's no moral dilemma here for you to worry about, really.

OTheHugeManatee · 25/01/2016 16:17

It's really worrying rumble. We have to get away from the idea that all the Good Views are 'on the same side' and there are no conflicts between them. Otherwise anyone who wants to be a Good Person with Good Views can be silenced simply for voicing a disagreement or pointing out a paradox, because in the Great Wall of Good Views there are no paradoxes.

Alternatively, and perhaps more effectively, we could stop caring about being seen as Good People With Good Views. In this I am 100% with Jeremy Clarkson: by not giving a shit he is far freer than the Good People With Good Views.

Katenka · 25/01/2016 16:18

Mostly MTTs want to use women's facilities because it validates their womanhood. Given that MTTs have the same rate of offending as men and are generally attracted to women, some want be there to ogle and possibly attack women whereas some will be genuinely fearful of using the male facilities.

some may fearful. However, to be frank, that's not our problem.

They don't want to get changed near people with a penis, for fear of being attacked. So why should other women have to get changed near a person with a penis?

Why does their right to get changed away from people with penises (or is it peni?) over ride women who want that also

It doesn't make sense.

Cerseirys · 25/01/2016 16:19

With regards to the Facebook group, would it be possible to change it from Closed to Secret? It’s just that another similar group I know of was, in the past, infiltrated by one of the more extreme trans activists who then got a list of member names and “doxed” them.

NickiFury · 25/01/2016 16:20

puntanstic. Please join. It's a closed group so nothing you do or say in there or do with regards to it can be seen on your main feed Smile

BeyondBootcampsAgain · 25/01/2016 16:22

OT a tad, but i wonder how much the ioc's decision was influenced by everyones favourite trans-sportswoman! Seems quite well timed, iyswim. Wonder if jenner is planning a return to sports!?

PuntasticUsername · 25/01/2016 16:23

Brill, thanks Nicky!

ChiefClerkDrumknott · 25/01/2016 16:24

I'm beginning to feel the need to don a tin foil hat, too, as I'm starting to believe this is the insidious way in which the the patriarchy is chipping away at women's rights. I feel a bit insane saying it, but that's how it feels.

I shared the Olympic ruling on my Facebook and one woman agreed with me, another is trying to call me bigoted in not so many words. I don't care any more, I'm too scared by all of this to care. Pointing out the difference between male and female bodies is met with ridicule, as if it's something wrong to say. Saying that high testosterone levels doesn't make you a man and low levels don't make you a woman, is not accepted. Even pointing out that I have high levels due to PCOS and I'm not a man is dismissed. I don't know how anyone can be so blind...

Bambambini · 25/01/2016 16:31

"What irony more delicious than a bunch of men in dresses, accusing women of having privilege! If I were a MRA I'd be right behind trans activism. Take that you whinging gashes, how do you like being on the back foot while someone uses their oppression as a stick to beat you with! Now you know what it feels like, etc etc etc."

I think the pits above unfortunately rings true. I post in another site where the majority posters are men. I thought about starting a thread about this IOC ruling to just spread awareness and get people talking but because there are many mysoginists on the board, I worry that they will gleefully use it to give women a kicking - exactly as the poster described above. I don't want to give them the ammunition. Sucks fucking big time.

Bambambini · 25/01/2016 16:34

Chief - many of us were blind and would have backed up Jenner and others as we have been conditioned to be super tolerant and nice to anyone who could be being bullied or oppressed - but we were actually very misinformed and ignorant about the trans world.

ChiefClerkDrumknott · 25/01/2016 16:48

Chief - many of us were blind and would have backed up Jenner and others as we have been conditioned to be super tolerant and nice to anyone who could be being bullied or oppressed - but we were actually very misinformed and ignorant about the trans world.

I know, I've said myself on other threads that I was the same, until I reached peak trans. I just am a bit Shock that someone can argue so fervently that the only difference that matters physically between men and women is testosterone. I wonder if this may be a turning point for some people. If it ends in an Olympic 100M line up where women and trans women are stood at the same start line, the difference will be very obvious.

Werksallhourz · 25/01/2016 17:00

Manatee I have a spidery suspicion that trans-rights are being used by certain forces for another much larger purpose. Certain controversial names are starting to come up in connection with trans-issues, and that makes me pause.

I am starting to believe the end game is to remodel society through creating repressive public environments of stress, confusion and, yes, fear, and to use certain ideas to break up areas of "sanctity": physical, psychological and developmental (I am still astonished at how they have managed to overcome the shibboleth of giving puberty blocking and cross hormone medication to children).

I mean, lets just look at what a lot of this policy and legislative change now means. The New York legislation is the canary in the mine here. Basically, that legislation means it is now impossible to eject any biological male from a space for biological women in vulnerable scenarios if said biological male simply says he is a woman.

That is all he needs to do. Any man can now walk into a ladies toilet and if he says those four words ("I am a woman"), you can't remove him. It doesn't matter what he wears, what he looks like, how he behaves, whether he is taking hormones, whether he has had any surgery: all of that is irrelevant.

This outcome is not even in the best interests of legitimate trans-women, let alone biological women, so just what the hell is going on?

QueenStromba · 25/01/2016 17:05

MNHQ have commented on the other thread. They said that they only back campaigns if the majority support them.

fascicle · 25/01/2016 17:06

venusinscorpio
I hope you consider that your queries have been answered, fascicle.

Sadly no. Can't find anything in the way of tweets or articles from Owen Jones to suggest that he expects lesbians to make themselves sexually available to transwomen. So what exactly did he say?

TheWatchersCouncil · 25/01/2016 17:06

Someone posted either here or on one of the other threads (I'm losing track!) linking to the Stonewall Trans Advisory Committee, specifically mentioning Alex Drummond. I feel that this person's act of stating that a woman can have a beard is an insult to women like Harnaam Kaur.

www.illamasqua.com/blog/lettertolittleme-2/

FelicityFunknickle · 25/01/2016 17:27

I would absolutely back a campaign in this area. I am horrified and fearful and furious that men have been allowed to invade and trample womanhood in this way. It is abhorrant.

venusinscorpio · 25/01/2016 17:32

He said that it was totally terrible and unreasonable for him as a gay man to be asked that question. So either he is spouting off indiscriminately on something he is spectacularly ill-informed about, or he's a big fat hypocrite who doesn't actually think trans women are women, but thinks it's reasonable for lesbians to have to justify who they should sleep with. But not gay men.

venusinscorpio · 25/01/2016 17:33

Sorry that was to fascicle.

Mummyusername · 25/01/2016 17:43

This is a really interesting one. Elite female athletes are never going to be the most typical female. If it would be bigoted to think a lesbian like Martina Navratilova (who does look very much like a man) should not be allowed compete against other women how can it not be bigoted to not allow women who have been born a little further along the spectrum of woman to man and are trying to take medication to fix it? Yes I know lesbians do not have penises before anyone says it.
Being more masculine that the average woman is the sort of advantage female athletes usually have. Is it not good for transwomen that they get something out of the rotten bad luck of being born with screwed up genitalia?

BeyondBootcampsAgain · 25/01/2016 17:45

"Woman to man" is not a spectrum.

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