To think that this is the end of women's athletics?

[fidel1ne]

And women's international sport generally?

Transgender competitors will be allowed to compete as the gender of their choosing pre-operatively and after just one year of hormone treatment.

And Fallon fox is a ball bag

Ireland recently passed law so that a person's sex is a matter of their own self determination.

here

The UK is reviewing and consulting on trans issues at the moment, which will I'm sure include looking at and probably amending the approach to who can change their sex in law and what they need to do in order to do that.

I do think that there must be a path through this which recognises and assists trans people - who face a host of difficulties this is well documented. But without opening the door for men (not transpeople, just bog standard men) who want access to women and girls places / things for less palatable reasons and will not blanche at saying they are female if it gets them what they want. And of course, a path through this without stepping on women's rights.

Ireland recently passed law so that a person's sex is a matter of their own self determination.

Ireland as in no abortion Ireland? As in women have no rights over whether they continue with pregnancy and childbirth Ireland?

www.bing.com/videos/search?q=fallon+fox&&view=detail&mid=F5BC4D98864ED86C2C6FF5BC4D98864ED86C2C6F&FORM=VRDGAR

Moving away from sports now, is this going to affect things like university scholarships for women embarking on STEM masters/PhDs? Post grad study is so horrifically expensive now I wouldn't be surprised if those were taken advantage of too- lots of scholarships available to encourage women into science.

Yes, that Ireland DeAt

With the trans law and gay marriage they have been lauded in press around the world as a forward thinking, inclusive, lovely kind wonderful nation of open-minded lovelies.

Everyone seemed to forget about the abortion thing.

That didn't come out quite right I didn't mean to imply that everyone in Ireland is not lovely!

But, that the lawmakers have managed to get themselves seen as highly progressive while still managing to be highly oppressive to women.

Bah. 70's Never mind those women and their bodies.

dona moving away from sport we have a local mtt aspiring MP who speaks at events designed to give women a platform in politics.

Death, it has been pointed out before that abortion legislation in ireland specifically mentions women. So (tiny silver lining to all this crap!) if a woman were to self-identify as a man, she technically could now have an abortion.

dona yes, anywhere that women have something that is for them - whether it's a competition, an award, a place to sleep, a quota on a board, whatever it might be, if there is a monetary / career progression / sexual gratification / award / whatever it might be benefit, then there will be men who will self define in order to access it. Not trans people - just men.

Thing is, while you had to have your penis cut off - well it still didn't make it fir to my mind, but that is a very big hurdle. If it's just "I am a woman" and you can get access to whatever it might be, then the numbers are going to increase, and not with people who are actually trans. Already there are increases in numbers of male convicts coming out as trans and the prison service says they are concerned because they don't believe that all of them actually are - they want in to the women's prison because they think it will be easier and / or for access to women. The thing I don't understand is why it is accepted that male prisons will be violent. What about all the men who are in male prisons who aren't trans and are at risk of rape and beatings? No-one has anything to say about that.

Beyond - that is true in theory but in practice I don't see it working at all unfortunately.

Doctors are very cautious in Ireland when it comes to abortion - even when they are allowed to perform one they sometimes hold back as seen in the death of Savita Halappanavar. I can't see them performing one on someone trying to get one via this loophole.

Hermione - I know what you are saying and the empathetic bit of me doesn't disagree. But I think the problem with being nice and trying to accommodate a middle ground, is that women end up being shafted. Which is exactly what's happened.

watchers this may be the first time in my,life I've been accused of being too nice/accommodating!

Ha!!

I don't see why there can't be special athletics events or categories for trans people . There are lots of events for older athletes , it's huge in the U.S.

Men and women of different ages have different times that they can use to qualify for a place in events such as the London marathon . It would be quite simple to have a third or fourth category for TW and TM.

There is so much sponsorship for men's sport. I'm sure they wouldn't mind giving up some of this to sponsor events for trans people .

There is so much sponsorship for men's sport. I'm sure they wouldn't mind giving up some of this to sponsor events for trans people .

This ^^

Why can't trans sport be seen as a subset of men's sport, since MTF transgender people are a subset of men.

It's all about what men want here, and they'll stamp on women to get it, belittling them with 'cis' labels, like they're the ones who aren't real women!

I don't see why there can't be special athletics events or categories for trans people . There are lots of events for older athletes , it's huge in the U.S.

Or even have an "anything goes" Olympics where people can make whatever body modifications they like...

Or take any enhancing drugs/hormones they like.

Interesting, jidget. So the MTF event recognises that MTF folks are disadvantaged against their birth sex and compensates?

Would anyone else be interested?

Hand raised here. PM me.

I think the only way to tackle this particular element of the T-related 'rabbit hole' is to try to make sponsors who are happy to shell out money for women's events that include TWs uncomfortable about doing so. The way to do that is to make a lot of noise.

The rest (school sports, school locker and shower rooms, university scholarships, Title IX in the US) is all unsponsored so probably impervious to influence once a small and very shrill group nudges sanity away from the wheel.

Moving away from sports now, is this going to affect things like university scholarships for women embarking on STEM masters/PhDs? Post grad study is so horrifically expensive now I wouldn't be surprised if those were taken advantage of too- lots of scholarships available to encourage women into science.

There was a link on previous thread about a women's college in the US being encouraged to prioritise Transwomen applicants because they can give an insight to make privilege.
I worry about the skewing of stats across a variety if stats, TW in high powered jobs will be counted as women in high powered jobs, it won't take much to make it look like women are totally equal in the workplace for eg. Or crime, it's argued that TW co it crime at the same rate of men, ( there's a study which was carried out over several years on a countries whole trans population, I'll link later, I know a couple if posters dislike it being mentioned on trans threads, but I think it's relevant) if it's logged as women committing them then we will be told women are just as violent as males as a class, which will make arguing about sex based crime, dv etc problematic.

I thought The woman looked nervous in that interview, like she was trying to word what she wanted to say without being seen as transphobic or offensive. I didn't realise she didn't know about Fallon before the fight, she may well have refused had she kniwn, she should have been given the option in my opinion.

Oh god I didn't realise fallon's opponent didn't know she was essentially fighting a man. That is absolutely horrific. That is completely unfair.

I think most people think transwomen are sexually attracted to men so not interested in women

Do they?

Yes they do. They perceive TWs and TGs as gay. Therefore no girls could possibly be at risk of assault or ogling or groping, etc in a locker or shower room in school. No women in prison or in a women's shelter could be at risk. People have seen gay men on TV dishing out fashion and home decorating advice, all very charming and nice people, presenting as 'feminine' (i.e. 'not masculine' as the word is currently understood), not afraid to be in touch with their inner 'feminine'. TWs and TGs appear to have gone so far towards embracing their inner feminine that they dress and wear their hair and use makeup in a feminine style. In the minds of many they are on the surface 'feminine', so they could not possibly be straight, or prone to violence. They are just like everyone's favourite pet TV gay man. This is a huge problem for anyone arguing that they do not belong in women's spaces.

There are some online lesbians who have been made very angry and most uncomfortable by TWs propositioning them aggressively in gay venues and elsewhere. Unfortunately, lesbians tend to be very much sidelined (being women and all) and there are few in the wider public who are interested in any issues they face at the hands of men. Being a woman is a major drawback when it comes to being heard, as I think we are all aware.

This is a travesty but I'm hoping it will wake people up to the madness of what is going on. The Olympics is a huge thing and you'd have to be living under a rock to not hear about male bodied people competing in women's events and you'd have to be mad to think that it was a sensible state of affairs.

There has been a big shift in opinion on trans matters on MN over the last year or so - it wasn't that long ago that I was one of a small handful of posters who was openly gender critical. Most people just needed to be made aware of what was actually going on and the implications for women. If it can be done on MN then it can be done elsewhere.

Liesel yes, TW's crimes are recorded as having been committed by women.

Given that it's discrimination not to record someone's self declared gender at work, then yes TW will be recorded as women for employment purposes. Recently america's highest paid female CEO was named as Martine Rothblatt Except Martine is a Transwomen, and guess what sex she was when she got the job?

It's terribly convenient, isn't it, this erasure of sex discrimination and women's lived experience by just including some men in with us?