to think it's irresponsible and reckless to accept large numbers of migrants when

[wonderingminds]

All over the country lots of factories are closing down and there is a serious shortage of housing.

The migrants likely have links to factories and industries overseas. Factories closing here doesn't mean they won't have jobs.

And twisting what people have said as well.

Come up with a solution.
Will stopping immigration benefit the poorest here? It never has done in the past. People only care about poor people here when they want to whine about immigration.

Poor people and single mothers and the disabled have been bashed for a decade, why dont you say or do something about that?

But that hardly helps the people who are losing their jobs in the UK, does it mimi? And that was the original question the OP posted.

If people are losing their jobs here its not new, is it. The pits were closed, the shipyards, the steel mills closed, Sheffield practically closed for business.
People said that was a good thing as the unions had got out of hand and needed taking down a peg or two.

And so here we are.

If immigrants are being employed undercutting local workers, blame the people employing them. No the immigrants.

I don't think the UK should be accepting immigrants right now because our essential services are already badly overstretched.

Hospitals - serious bed shortage, long waits for operations. I've spent a lot of time in hospitals lately and the over stretching of resources/staff is terrifying.

Schools - oversubscribed, kids stuffed in every little nook of the existing ones. Teachers have too many kids to teach.

Housing - in my city alone, 13,000 families are waiting to be housed.

Police - insufficient resources to investigate most crimes (eg burglary), unless very serious.

Roads - frequently gridlocked.

Public transport - frequently ram jam full.

I just don't get it . We cannot manage with our current population size and density. How can we manage with more?

but if they had no one or fewer to pay less wages to they would still have to employ someone

its not blaming the immigrants it is what happens when you have an influx of immigrants living and working in an area where jobs are few and wages are low

champale I don't think anyone is "blaming"immigration for unemployment or housing shortages. They are saying that until the current situation is resolved, it would be foolish to keep adding to that problem by allowing more and more people to escalate it. No one has mentioned the word "blame" until you did.

i100.independent.co.uk/article/the-rightwing-press-has-massively-overblown-the-effect-of-immigration-on-wages--Z1iuVUZong

The claim that migration drives wages down has been debunked too.

champale I do, every day whether I'm working or not. That's how come I have first hand knowledge of the effect. And nobody has blamed the immigrants themselves, unless I've missed a post.

It's not just the number of jobs, which I agree is for many reasons, not solely migration. The issue is the pay and security of jobs. Employers won't offer a nmw salary if they can get people to do it zero hours nmw. And a very large number of unskilled jobs are now offered on that basis.

widow so that's a no then, you don't have actual raw data on just the bottom end of the market. Only some unique take on basic economy, where in your head a saturated labour market creates jobs, and doesn't reduce conditions and pay.

Be as much of a liberal as you like. But be liberal with your standard of living and the wealthier, not the most vulnerables.

Ps calling me prejudice just proves you've ran out of logical argument.

No widow newspaper article and data are slightly different things. I'm not going to take that as gospel any more than I'd believe all immigrants are criminals because someone posted a daily mail link as proof

Do you need a little longer to come up with a solution as to how you would fund unlimited migration widowwadman because you still haven't given an inkling as to how it could be done. You've cut & pasted several articles to add weight to your argument but the deal breaker is who and how could it be paid for, whilst still providing housing, education, health care and employment for all of those already in the UK who need it NOW. I've asked several times. .......

I find it interesting when people who often earn a lot less than many immigrants somehow think they are funding them. I don't know one immigrant family on benefits - they've totally reinvigorated small business in my city - small businesses owned by our family were decimated by WW2 and it's aftermath. There are plenty of natives who basically got everything knicked from them or found their circumstances greatly reduced (through being sent to war etc) and yet they still blame immigrants for their problems and not the corrupt bastards who did well from it.

I'm not the one who has made my mind up here, Widow :)

We have a population that is rapidly increasing because of all sorts of factors. The only one of those factors we can control is the level of immigration.

If we had a declining birth rate and/or a war or a natural disaster that had killed a large percentage of the population it would be different, but neither of those factors are true.

Of the 2 million Bris living in the EU most are either retirees or are high paid workers. We don't export unskilled workers from the UK.

The net migration effect on low paid workers is more severe than the raw figures suggest. We are exporting well off retirees and some high skill workers and importing an equal number of high skill but also a great many more low skill or unskilled immigrants.

The impact is all at the bottom end of the income scale.

The rise of zero hours contracts and unpaid work is a direct effect of that. If an employee complains there is always an unskilled immigrant willing to do it.

Women are obviously affected more as they tend to be found in part time and low paid jobs.

Migration is a side issue.

Lack of job security, employers paying minimum wage, the rise of buy to let, lack of investment in jobs and communities. More qualifications required to enter jobs where you didn't used to need a degree, the reduction in social mobility. The rich getting richer and the poorer getting poorer and even the middle class being squeezed.

Migration and refugees are not to blame for the above. The government (both con & labour) are to blame. But, people buy into the agenda of the government and vote for nasty politics.. Looking for someone to blame. The refugees and migrants are blameless, they are just looking for a better life or even a life.

Beta dad - the rise in zero hours contracts is because of employment law not migration. If the government legislated to protect people's employment rights then providing job security bam - no more zero hours contracts.

And an unskilled immigrant might actually be very skilled. The main issue is probably competent English. And most of the low paid jobs you refer to are probably unskilled anyway - factory, Amazon warehouses.

I live in the affluent South East, I see migrants in coffee shops, cleaners, builders, studying.

Is anybody who is Euro-sceptic actually blaming the immigrants personally?

I certainly am not!

Namehanger - I agree that employment law allows zero hours contracts but the fact that employers can get away with it shows how over supplied the job market is at the bottom of the income scale. If the job market was tight then zero hours contracts would not exist because employees would refuse to take zero hours contract jobs. Employers would have to compete with higher pay, better conditions and permanent contracts.

If we took away NMW and all benefits I just wonder what rate the market would set as the minimum wage? Its the oversupply of labour at the bottom of the income scale that keeps pay rates low and yes that makes rich people much richer and eventually destroys the middle class that hold society together.

Donald Trump has spotted this in America and you only have to see his popularity rating to see it resonates. Closing the US/Mexico border with a great big fence to stop illegal Mexican workers and raising tariff barriers to force US farms to repatriate factories is his rhetoric. That is where we are heading in the UK. Our economic migrants are the Mexican illegal immigrants of the EU. English is the second language of some cities in the US southern states. Same as English is the second language in some areas of the UK.

Its the same issue and some very ugly politics come with it.

"Is anybody who is Euro-sceptic actually blaming the immigrants personally? "

I am Euro sceptic but not against immigration on a points system. I would welcome any skilled worker or investor into the UK. It makes us stronger as a country. I only disagree with uncontrolled migration because of the impact on people on low income.

Most of my working life I have worked internationally or in international markets. Barely ever done business in the UK although I live here. Our economy is an open economy providing high value services to the World and our manufacturing industry will not return any time soon but that does not mean people at the bottom end of the income scale should have to compete with immigrants for low paid jobs of cleaners, bar tenders, coffee baristas, shop assistants. If those wage rates went up to £10/hour employers would just have to make less profit or pay lower rents for shops and offices. At the moment the whole burden of globalisation and immigration falls on the lowest pad who are least able to afford it.

ABeta - exactly. This is why Blair's government recasting immigration as a moral issue - with diversity being intrinsically morally better and objections rooted in bigotry and hatred - was such an outrageous con trick. The reality is that high immigration benefits the middle and upper classes while stamping down on wages and quality of life (not to mention public support for welfare) for the poorest.

I'm broadly in favour of well managed immigration and think it brings many benefits. I would: I stand to gain without seeing many of the downsides. But it has winners and losers. And it sickens me to see the language of the Left trotted out to conceal who the losers in mass migration really are.

Mass migration was seen as a way of importing 'natural Labour voters' and shoring up the inner city majority.

Big business liked it too and behold the 'third way' was born. Intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich as long as poor people stayed poor and voted Labour.

Problem is it undermined the old working class who promptly went out and voted UKIP and white van man swung back to voting Tory. The number of tradesmen who I have had through my house in the last two years all saying their parents voted Labour but they wouldn't was testimony to that. Not outright racist in any way but uneasy about immigration and especially job prospects and the future for their children.

Mass migration was seen as a way of importing 'natural Labour voters'

Unfortunately (as some are learning) the cultures that people bring with them to the UK are actually quite conservative, and antipathetic to Labour values. There's a certain paradox in the requirement for the UK to remain a multicultural society in order to accept refugees and migrants, when those refugees and migrants have very little respect for a multicultural society.

I'm vaguely reminded that as yeast ferments, it is slowly killed by the alcohol it makes.

Didn't read the whole thread because I can't be bothered.
I think ohthehuge makes an excellent point. I personally am with the OP, I simply don't think we can afford more economic migrants. There's huge levels of unemployment in this country, I appreciate this has been going on for years but if there are more people competing for fewer jobs the figures are only going to go up. Secondly, and this may be mere speculation, but I imagine that if we get more economic migrants taking the jobs it's only going to increase resentment towards them, which the poor sods don't need. Thirdly, our NHS is already stretched, will those immigrants be entitled to health care for free or will they have to pay?
Call me a selfish bitch if you wish to but I think we need to sort our own shit out before we wade in to help someone else's. And to be clear, I don't think Jeremy Corbyn is going to help anything.
And I'll go off point here and rant about the left a bit because I seem to be surrounded by them and it annoys me to no end. Their plans are good. Free public transport, cheaper university fees, higher benefits, complete equality for all, a war-free world, these things are all great and I don't think anyone sane would disagree with me that these are wonderful ideas. But you ask any left winger how their going to do it and they can't answer you. We have a budget which we cannot exceed and if the cost of one thing goes up the cost of another thing must come down, that's not being heartless that's simple reality.

not being heartless that's simple reality.

Not something the left has ever let get in the way of anything.