to think it's irresponsible and reckless to accept large numbers of migrants when

[wonderingminds]

All over the country lots of factories are closing down and there is a serious shortage of housing.

ohforgodsake the ridiculously low number of refugees our government has agreed to accept is not going to have any impact. Anyone else from outside the EEA is subject to tight rules and restrictions, and earnings thresholds that I seriously can't get worried about that.

The UK government has decided to keep out of helping the people who are displaced despite their own involvement in their displacement, which is shameful.

Housing shortages and the closing of steel works due to other fuckups policy should not be trouted out as a reason why we shouldn't help those escaping circumstances more dire than we can even dream of.

Ghosty, even if we assume there had been no cuts whatsoever, the thinner resources are spread the less there is for everybody. A bit like a large family where a gross income of £40,000 can bring one child up in luxury, two in comfort, three with necessities and four in poverty. That's perhaps an oversimplification but explains the general point clearly enough.

Where is affects the poor is that they are the ones reliant, as a rule, on these public services. They don't have the option to go private, move away or buy. They don't employ cleaners, carers or nannies and they won't ever be buying second homes in France or Germany.

I too cannot see how any country can continue to accept migration, at the current levels, when those people desperately require housing (which is in very short supply); education for themselves & their children (when there is already a dire shortage of school places already) & healthcare (when our NHS is already crumbling under existing pressure). It's grand to say that we have a moral obligation to take these desperate people in. But we have the same moral obligations to the people who are already here and also require a roof over their heads; employment; education and healthcare. Perhaps those who strongly advocate unlimitless imigration, no matter what the cost, could come up with a grand plan as to how to finance it because it will take many years before the majority of migrants will be contributors to our economy. Who bears the load in the meantime?

Exactly
Kind hearted sentiments are all very well, but where is the cold hard cash going to come from?
It's all very well saying ''build more schools'' ''build more houses''.
With WHAT?
These are important question that needs proper answers

This subject is so huge at the moment that it's not something that can be brushed under the carpet with put downs such as ''stfu about migrants''.

A problem doesn't go away just because people 'don't talk about it'.

But then the funding not being available to expand services is the issue - the population is growing even without immigration - so funding needs to increase - but it is being cut

Public services are being cut at unprecedented levels - millions and millions removed from local authorities - this is having a much bigger impact (see bedroom tax, benefit caps etc)

Like many, I'd like us to leave the EU. I certainly don't have anything against migrants or immigrants and the ones I know are delightful! But I am concerned at resources being spread too thin and the population of the country being too high.

Immigration is hugely increasing the size of the population, though, and we can't just keep pumping money as the answer to everything when there are other implications and some of those implications are serious.

To go back to my family analogy, it's like having one child then discovering you're expecting triplets! It's one thing planning for a natural increase in population through birth rate and another having it double in a year.

rose

That points system you dream of exists already.

Families are already forced apart because of it, and British citizens in binational relationships are already forced into exile.

Employers will soon be forced to let go of qualified staff after 5 years if they can't reach the earnings threshold of 35k.

People are already detained indefinitely in camps such as Yarl's Wood, without any indication for how much longer.

we shall not be accepting large numbers

and we are not in a position to

thankthoseluckystars despite the net contribution they make? Not spreading finite resources thinner but actually adding to the resources through tax contribution, labour and creation of jobs.

ghosty wages and labour conditions at the bottom end of the work force. Its basic economy that when the labour market is flooded, wages and working conditions drop. There's any amount of evidence that any other occasion the labour market is flooded this happens.

I also don't think it needs actual data to prove that if you split x between a larger group of people, everyone gets a smaller fraction. Except the UK doesn't split x evenly to start with. It's 6/x for the wealthy, and 0.00000001/x for the least wealthy. And whenever funds are needed for anything it's the latter that have their fraction shared out.

Widow, like many I feel that the system you name above is caused by our membership in the EU.

Even if we were to assume that everybody who migrated to the UK actually made us money, I would still have grave reservations from an environmental perspective. I am very concerned about this and feel the situation will only get worse.

It's just my day to day experience at work widow. Nothing more, nothing less. About 80% of my patients are immigrants, so I'm working with huge diversity all the time.

I've also moved countries in past, so I understand the challenges but people go on to build new communities and support networks.

Fact remains the pressure on services is enormous. Housing is beyond stretched and living conditions are disgraceful for a huge number children in the UK, many of whom are housed in crappy, shitty temporary accommodation for years on end or seriously overcrowded. I don't know what the solution is but I don't think just trying to endlessly accommodate people is the answer. It just makes life worse for the poorest IME.

widow creation of jobs? Could you link to some facts showing the ratio of secure unskilled jobs created by immigration, compared to the number of unskilled, mw, insecure jobs immigration has made possible?

thankthoseluckystars so you basically admit you made your mind up about who's to blame and don't want to think any further about it.

Why is the EU to blame for the selling off of council housing? Why is the EU to blame for Tata steel? In what way has the EU caused the cutting of services?

What will you use as a scapsgoat if the splendid isolation you dream of is achieved?

Lurked I provided some links above. Go and have a read.

Yup it was indeed a very intelligent point...and one I haven't seen a decent response to. If the country is getting too crowded and we don't have enough jobs house etc. then lets look to the birth rate. It far FAR exceeds net migration.

Doesn't it make sense to look after the people already alive in the world rather than bring in yet more and tell those already alive and in dire need to get knotted?

widowwadman you're evading the question. I asked how you would fund housing; healthcare; education & social needs for all of the would be immigrants who want to come to the UK, irrespective of where they are from? Balance that with what responsibilities we already have for current UK residents (no matter what nationality they are or how long they have been here). You may not be worried about it but from the postings on this thread tonight, it would appear that there are many other people who are. That does not make them prejudiced or racist. It means that they are cognisant of the world around them and that they are sufficiently intelligent to discuss it. Shortage of housing, and jobs, are REAL problems for the thousands of people in the UK that it affects.

he post by OTheHugeManatee on the previous page was excellent.

It is the people on the lowest incomes and most precarious circumstances are most affected by immigration of unskilled migrants.

I am in a socio economic class most likely to benefit from immigration of unskilled migrants. I think it is repulsive for wealthy people to tell people in the lowest income groups they are racists for saying that immigration directly impacts their life in a negative way.

I strongly believe this issue will tear the EU apart in the end. The rise of the far right is absolutely going to happen and desperate poor people will vote for them because no moderate political movement has any intention of dealing with the issue of migration in a meaningful way.

I wouldn't say that immigration is the only negative impact to cause the poor to struggle more but it certainly does impact the poorer in our society more than anyone else

areas of lower rent will often be rented out to immigrants two familes in one house, young men sharing, employers pay lower rates, less skilled workers applying for more roles, employers paying less landlords charging more

of course immigration can add to society but that is after some time living here not overnight (apart from a few very very wealthy) the extra costs on the nhs, housing and schooling impacts us all but those with little money or no money coming here are not going to be living in the nicer areas where (certainly in London) the better schools are

widow not articles. Actual raw data, from a reliable and unbiased source, showing immigration levels and the creation of secure unskilled jobs at the bottom end of the market. Not somebody elses spin on it.

Lurked One of my links was to UCL, the other one to the study by migration observatory (of Oxford University).

But then you're not actually interested in reading anything that could somehow contradict your prejudices.

I haven't seen anyone else on this thread posting anything but unsubstantiated opinions. There's your unbiased raw data showing that migrants don't create jobs, eh?

I have posted data from ONS widowwadman . But you, on the other hand, have still not answered my question.

And you will insist on calling people prejudiced just because they don't agree with you. That's not having an intelligent discussion is it?