Aibu to be devastated after committing an unintentional crime.

[devastatedcriminal999]

I had a really long week with dc's winter vomiting bug. stuck in the house all week the 1st ds 10months to start vomiting Monday was better now and also bored and frustrated. DH working long hours all week. It was my winter week off work.
DH arrived in from work and said why don't you and youngest ds take time out. We wrapped up warm and went for a walk we live in a very built up area. I decided to get myself a new top and live almost opposite the shopping centre. I said id pop over quickly treat myself to a top or two. I had no makeup on but was still dressed well not sure if that its even relevant
I went into Debenhams had a trail through their sale rails to see if there was any late bargains. I picked up various tops in my size and sale stuff was organised in sizes. I went through them decided on 3 nothing special. I went to the till paid for my items and left.
I went into the shop next door and was buying some vests for dc's. When I went to get my handbag I seen there was one tops still on hanger unpaid for on the handle of the buggy. I paid for the vests and returned to Debenhams immediately. I was at least 50 feet into the shop and I stopped to look for a member of staff to explain. A plain clothes security guard approached me pulled the top from the buggy, it was not hidden the top was in clear view I was afraid to touch it until I got to the shop. I said I am really sorry I left this top on the back of the buggy. He insisted I head to the back offices with him. I tried to protest then he said that he was entitled to use reasonable force if i did not return to discuss the matter. (I know I did leave the shop without paying for the item it was a total misunderstanding. When we got to the back office he had a huge security guard there. I was really upset, Ds 10months was really upset. He said he would have to call the guards (Ireland) I had to wait two hours even though I pleaded that I had sick DC at home, I work full time I have never stolen anything in my life etc. He kept saying that is what they all say. I showed him I had money I had cards I did not need to steal, He was so rude and saying yes tell it to the guards insisting I seen him following me and that is why I returned the top, I had only been in a shop 2 doors down and then returned to the store. Finally the guards came. The security guard said I.
I explained what happened. I had even said to the girl in the vests shop and dear I took that by mistake from Debenhams what shall I do. She said just bring it back. In hindsight I should have asked her to call security. (at also explained this at the start to the security).
The Garda turned up watched the cctv, checked my details for any criminal record and the female gard said we can see from the cctv it was unintentional.
Then the male guard said we are issuing you with a caution as you passed the till with an item, I said I did not know I had the item on me.He was very rude and said I can except the caution or get arrested. I just excepted it I was completely defeated and just wanted to get home, 10mins shopping trip turned into 3hours of hell It has really shook me.

She did not understand what the caution was when she signed it.

OP, some official forms for some jobs/visas will ask you to disclose whether you have ever been arrested or cautioned or warned by a police officer for an offence. You will have to answer YES. They might ask you to state the offence you were cautioned for, and you will have to answer SHOPLIFTING. I do not think you should assume that there is no caution on record. If I were you I would want to be sure, not just cross fingers and hope for the best.

You did nothing wrong, but you have to sort it out right now or it could come back to bite you in the future. Sort it out now. Don't listen to those posters telling you to chalk it to experience and put it behind you. You have to take legal advise and sort it out. Your innocence is worth fighting for. YOU HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG! A clean record is worth fighting for, when you know you have done nothing wrong.

By the way there is no such thing as 'unintentionally' committing a crime as you wrote. Crimes require a guilty mind, with only few exceptions.

No intention = no crime.

Don't be tempted to just put it behind you and forget about it. This is like people who suffer from identity theft. It's unfair and nasty and expensive and stressful to sort out, when none of it was your fault, but you can't just leave it. You are innocent and you have to make sure your record is clear.

The OP would have to answer "THEFT", kawliga, because that's the offence for which she would be cautioned and you're absolutely right - a clean record is worth fighting for.

Lulu

This all happened in Ireland, not the UK.

As a previous poster has laid out

"A Garda Superintendent or a Garda Inspector who is acting as the Superintendent administers the Adult Caution

• I doubt supercop was a Superintendent, they don't spend their days fannying about dealing with alleged shoplifting in Debenhams.

The caution takes place in a Garda station.

• Which it didn't.

You are required to acknowledge in writing that you agree to accept the caution

• Which the op didn't.

and that you do not object to the fact that the caution will be recorded and will be made known to a court in the event of any subsequent conviction for any criminal offence.

• Which wasn't made clear to the op.

Therefore op does not have a caution as none of the criteria laid out for the caution to be issued took place.

OP from the sounds of it, you haven't been issued with an 'official' caution and that the garda officer could not have issued an adult caution in the circumstances described even if he wanted to. My best guess is that thought he'd act the hard man and throw some big scary words about to try and shit you up a bit and because he's an arsehole

Well unless you were taken to a Garda Station, devastated, I think you haven't been officially cautioned, more just gotten a telling off with the word 'caution' thrown around to make it sound more serious.

Because, according to the Citizens Information website re the Adult Cautioning Scheme, 'Section 4a person is guilty of theft if he or she dishonestly appropriates property without the consent of its owner and with the intention of depriving its owner of it'.

You did not intend to steal the item. Re cautioning, it states 'a Garda Superintendent or a Garda Inspector who is acting as the Superintendent administers the Adult Caution. The caution takes place in a Garda station'.

So you weren't cautioned at a Garda station and you didn't intend to steal the item. I honestly think that you are okay.

Or, yeah, what Compos said. Damnit Compos, I was trying to be all knowledgeable and helpful, and you totally usurped me .

So it's basically what happened to my sister when she robbed a Pan Stick from Dunnes. Bit of a telling off, don't do it again and the worst crime was wearing Pan Stick

Put it this way OP. They have no documented 'caution'. Therefore, there is no record. For there to be a record? They would need your signature.

Police try to reason with security and store manager but they insist charges are pressed as CCTV not clear.

The alleged victim can't 'press charges' that is the role of the CPS in England and Wales to decide if someone is to be charged.

As it's unlikely that there'd be a Superintendent on duty in the relevant police station at night and it's also unlikey that a police officer of this rank would be called to come out for such a minor offence, I'm not confident that the OP is off the hook Compos

That said, the fact that the OP was not given anything in writing pertaining to a caution gives me cause for cautious optimism. However, while hoping for the best, I intend to do my best to prepare the OP for the worst.

i paid for an item and as i left the store , the shop lifter alert started blaring. I went back in and the cashier had not removed the alarm -but my back pack was searched and i was questioned. No apology , when they did not find any stolen stuff but did see the bill for the item with the alarm still attached.I think maybe they are given profiles to be suspicious of-mums with buggies, old ladies with back packs---

Cross posted with you earlier WildeWoman. From your link: "If it is decided to administer a caution, the member in charge of the Garda station arranges a suitable time and venue for the administering of the caution by the Superintendent. Once the caution is administered, a copy of the completed Adult Caution Referral Form is given to the offender."

"The entire procedure from the detection of the crime to the completion of the administering of the caution is carried out as soon as is possible, that is, in days rather than months."

From which it would seem possible that the OP may receive a letter or visit from the Garda requiring her to attend a specified police station at an appointed time/date at which time the Superintendent will administer the caution providing the OP gives her consent.

If this should occur, given the circumstances I would strongly advise the OP not to to accept a caution and to opt for prosecution in which case she may be charged with theft contrary to Section 4 of the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act 2001.

In this event, it will be incumbent on the prosection to prove that the OP "dishonestly appropriated property without the consent of its owner" (Debenhams) "and with the intention of depriving its owner of it" which is clearly not the case as, after discovering the item that had not been included in the tops she had paid for, the OP returned to the store with the intention of paying for it/or giving it to a member of staff as evidenced by the fact that she was "at least 50' into the store" before she was approached by a security guard. NB it would be interesting to view a tape of that encounter*.

The OP's defence will rely on the fact that "a person does not appropriate property without the consent of its owner if the person believes that he or she has the owner's consent, or would have the owner's consent if the owner knew of the appropriation of the property and the circumstances in which it was appropriated" and that this woman of impeccable character has not acted dishonestly.

Furthermore, the circumstances in which the item was appropriated were known to the owner by means of CCTV and at no time was the OP followed from the store nor was she challenged by a member of Debenham's security personnel when she emerged from the store next door.

In short, it would seem that the OP has been penalised for her honesty and it would be a travesty of justice if she were to be criminalised for it.

*If you can remember approximately what time you returned to the store I suggest your dh (and the letter) requests that the relevant tape also be preserved until your solicitor can view it. Needless to say, keep the letter brief - don't rehash the events of last night and confine it to a request for the tape(s) to be preserved.

Similar has happened to me, I was buying ties for my DH, 5 minutes later as I walked into the next shop I realised one of the ties had hooked onto the handle of my bag, I returned to the shop with it and they thanked me, no suspicions about it at all.

I would absolutely complain about your treatment, talk to a solicitor to see if it was handled correctly, how can they say it was clear from the CCTV that it was unintentional and then give you a caution !! Also the cashier in the other shop can corroborate your story, that you were in fact returning the goods, I am sure she will remember, go back asap to ask her.

A family member, in Ireland, was falsely accused of shoplifting, she received quite a large sum of money in compensation for their error.

Your lone voice would appear to be casting aspersions on the OP's integrity, Back.

Do you usually jump to erroneous conclusions, or is it that you haven't bothered to read this thread?

I wonder how many actual shoplifters managed to get away whilst they were holding the OP?

God. My friend (after shopping trip from hell with demon spawn plus being the ditziest person on the planet) once walked out of a big supermarket with a whole load of clothes hooked on her buggy. It wasn't till someone pointed it out to her on the bus 15 minutes later that she realised.
Op, I'd be writing to Debenams and complaining. If they saw the cctv they could see you were coming back after realising.

When I used to work in retail this happened all of the time, I would say about twice a week with mums with pushchairs looking frazzled.

Reading a PP about someone getting caught in debenhams - my younger brother was also caught and banned when his little girl stuffed a toy under her bum in the stroller. Luckily he was let off, but they did call the police and the store were very reluctant even with the cctv footage and he was banned for two years. I think they do it to make an example of people.

People that shoplift don't tend to return to the shop to give the goods back. that male guard appears to be a bit thick!

Never mind thick.

he said that he was entitled to use reasonable force if i did not return to discuss the matter
He threatened OP to get her to the back office. "Reasonable" force in this case would be none. Security guards are not "entitled" to use force against anyone.

I don't know if they or a another company operate where you are but you may be contacted by a company called retail loss prevention who hit you with a speculative invoice and pass it off as legitimate, threatening court action of you do not pay

Tale a look at this link it will tell you what to do if contacted by these clowns

www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/forumdisplay.php?236-Retail-loss-Prevention-Other-shoplifting-allegations.

So if you had just taken the top home nothing would have happened to you
But you where honest and look were it got you
So much for honesty is the best policy
What a bloody jobsworth-security guard. Complain complain complain

I believe you op.

Sadly, I used to work in retail and lots of people used to shoplift using buggies. It was the most common way, or rather the people we caught the most!

A lot of shoplifters would even blame their children babies for shoplifting!

I don't buy the security guard's story that he was following you and that you only decided to return because you saw him. If he had been following you, he would have stopped you outside the store. He wouldn't have waited till you'd gone into another shop, browsed, paid for your goods there, and gone back to the original shop.

The shop security man had cocked up by letting you leave and not spotting the top in the first place so that's why he got on his high horse when you came back.

As a pp said its not uncommon for innocent mums and intended shoplifters to use their buggy so you'd think he'd be alert to those situations.

I'm not Irish, but it sounds like the policeman was at best heavy handed and hazy on the issuing of cautions, and at worst crap at detecting in the face of facts and cctv evidence and his knowledge of when and how to issue cautions.

I would phone a solicitor OP, really I would. You don't want this shit on permanant record, and the people involved need retraining in their jobs.

OP, I do hope this is the last you hear of it in terms of a caution.
You have not been given a caution.
If they call you to the police station, read the two posts below by Prh47Bridge. That poster is a lawyer very helpful to MNers.

I must say this is just making me terrified of going back to a store if I accidently walk out with something without paying. It seems like you're more likely to get 'done' for shoplifting if you try to fix things.