Aibu to be devastated after committing an unintentional crime.

[devastatedcriminal999]

I had a really long week with dc's winter vomiting bug. stuck in the house all week the 1st ds 10months to start vomiting Monday was better now and also bored and frustrated. DH working long hours all week. It was my winter week off work.
DH arrived in from work and said why don't you and youngest ds take time out. We wrapped up warm and went for a walk we live in a very built up area. I decided to get myself a new top and live almost opposite the shopping centre. I said id pop over quickly treat myself to a top or two. I had no makeup on but was still dressed well not sure if that its even relevant
I went into Debenhams had a trail through their sale rails to see if there was any late bargains. I picked up various tops in my size and sale stuff was organised in sizes. I went through them decided on 3 nothing special. I went to the till paid for my items and left.
I went into the shop next door and was buying some vests for dc's. When I went to get my handbag I seen there was one tops still on hanger unpaid for on the handle of the buggy. I paid for the vests and returned to Debenhams immediately. I was at least 50 feet into the shop and I stopped to look for a member of staff to explain. A plain clothes security guard approached me pulled the top from the buggy, it was not hidden the top was in clear view I was afraid to touch it until I got to the shop. I said I am really sorry I left this top on the back of the buggy. He insisted I head to the back offices with him. I tried to protest then he said that he was entitled to use reasonable force if i did not return to discuss the matter. (I know I did leave the shop without paying for the item it was a total misunderstanding. When we got to the back office he had a huge security guard there. I was really upset, Ds 10months was really upset. He said he would have to call the guards (Ireland) I had to wait two hours even though I pleaded that I had sick DC at home, I work full time I have never stolen anything in my life etc. He kept saying that is what they all say. I showed him I had money I had cards I did not need to steal, He was so rude and saying yes tell it to the guards insisting I seen him following me and that is why I returned the top, I had only been in a shop 2 doors down and then returned to the store. Finally the guards came. The security guard said I.
I explained what happened. I had even said to the girl in the vests shop and dear I took that by mistake from Debenhams what shall I do. She said just bring it back. In hindsight I should have asked her to call security. (at also explained this at the start to the security).
The Garda turned up watched the cctv, checked my details for any criminal record and the female gard said we can see from the cctv it was unintentional.
Then the male guard said we are issuing you with a caution as you passed the till with an item, I said I did not know I had the item on me.He was very rude and said I can except the caution or get arrested. I just excepted it I was completely defeated and just wanted to get home, 10mins shopping trip turned into 3hours of hell It has really shook me.

OP, please, I know the rudeness and unkindness was upsetting, but if the Garda actually issued you with a caution this is really serious- not just upsetting due to them being unkind and rude.

However I have just read the Ministry of Justice document 'Issuing a simple caution to an adult offender' and if they have acted in any way properly and the law is the same there, it sounds as if they did NOT actually caution you.

To be cautioned you have to accept and admit guilt. The police have to explain the implications of s caution, that it will show on a criminal record, on a DBS check.

They have to get you to sign the caution form .

Did any of these things happen ?

This happened to my dad, many years ago, for a 5 pound CD. He's ridiculously absent-minded, as is clear from about 30 seconds of talking to him. The security guards acted as yours did. They picked on the wrong man, though, as he insisted that he wasn't going to accept guilt. The store pressed charges, and my dad pushed it to a full jury trial, believing that magistrates too often take the easy way out of believing the store. (Not even sure you have the right to do that nowadays). The security guards lied under oath, but unfortunately for them were too stupid to do it properly - they tied themselves up in knots. The judge threw the case out of court, with strong words for the company in question. Can't imagine how much public money the whole stupid saga wasted .

It's shocking that security guards can get away with this kind of stuff. Some of them let the power go to their heads. You did nothing wrong, and they behaved outrageously.

Thank you so much for your advise. I really had no idea about this situation. I just did not want to be arrested. I did not admit guilt he said I will have to issue you with a caution and started to write in his black book. I said but I did not steal anything I was back in the shop to return the top, etc etc I had siad this repeatedly. he the male police guard said yes but you left the shop with the item. I literally said ok as I did although I returned. looking back I should have said more. I will definitely been sending Dp over in the morning to make sure the cctv is preserved Thank you for that advise.

I'm hoping that what took place was no more than an attempt by a bad tempered police officer to put the fear of god in the OP with a view to deterring her from committing further offences, Blu. It happens.

But, neverthless, this is a serious matter that should be addressed by a solicitor who specialises in criminal law as it sounds highly irregular and also sounds as if the OP may have a case against the store for wrongful arrest/detainment.

But you didn't sign anything?

Did you give them your name and address?

No I did not sign anything, I was shocked and thought do they post it, He said about the caution but no big speech of T&Cs of caution. I really wanted to get out of there, kept thinking oh good god i just got a police caution

Yes I gave them name and address date of birth. Where I work,They done a pulse check, My partners name as I had his bank card in my purse. Showed cards to prove ID and address. They took my id's cards left to do check. The lady stayed there said as above. the male gave the big speech gave me my stuff back and i left.

I think you should look into whether you actually received a caution or not. The police may have been bullshitting you. I'd try and do it on the QT if possible. If you make too many waves, the police ay actually issue you with a caution but can you run a check or something and see if the caution is actually there or not? Or perhaps go to a different police station and ask them if they can check? Not sure if this is actually possible. If the caution isn't there then I'd drop it. If it's there, then I'd get legal advice.

looking back I should have said more

Don't beat yourself up. You said exactly right the right things and the less you say the better in these situations as it's a sad fact that many either convict themselves within a few minutes of being in a police station or manage to convince the police that they're guilty as sin.

My rule of thumb is that the police work on the assumption of guilty until proved innocent whereas the courts work on the assumption of innocent until proved guilty.

Well done you dad, zoe, but he wouldn't be able to opt for trial by jury on a shoplifting charge these days and would have to try his luck in the Magistrates god help him.

The male Garda was being a total shit. It must have been very obvious to everyone there it was an honest mistake; some people just enjoy the bit of power their job gives them over others, unhappy bastards like making other people unhappy.

Seriously, get decent legal advice. Also, keep your receipt from the second shop; it should have your shop asssitant's name on it and they can verify your discovery of the mistake which could be useful.

I am still not clear at all on the following :

A shop security guard issued a --fake- caution.

The Police (Guarda) issued a caution in a shop without reading rights or offering the opportunity of legal advice.

OP I think an Irish 'caution' is not the same as an English caution, but I could be wrong. An Irish caution is more a case of 'look, we'll let you off now, but if we catch you again!', whereas an English caution goes on your record.
Boards.ie would be a good place to post for legal advice maybe - though the fuckers can be a bit wankery there.

If you make too many waves, the police may actually issue you with a caution Unless you are able to link to cases where this has occured, your statement is no more than scaremongering, NightWanderer, and imo the OP has been intimidated enough to last the rest of her life.

As it takes a while for police paperwork to be processed and for cautions to appear on CRB checks it would be a pointless exercise for the OP to apply for her record at this point in time.

www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/law_enforcement/adult_cautioning_scheme.html

50 euros on a solicitor are in order in this case I think op!

As I understand it a caution issued in Northern Ireland is not dissimilar to an English/Welsh caution, but perhaps the OP is in Eire and different procedures apply?

From the above link:

Apart from the fact that you weren't even arrested!

"The cautioning procedure

A Garda Superintendent or a Garda Inspector who is acting as the Superintendent administers the Adult Caution. The caution takes place in a Garda station. You are required to acknowledge in writing that you agree to accept the caution and that you do not object to the fact that the caution will be recorded and will be made known to a court in the event of any subsequent conviction for any criminal offence."

You haven't committed a crime OP. It was a simple mistake, you didn't intentionally steal something. Please don't beat yourself up

Fuck 'em, life's too short. I wouldn't grace them with my custom again and the police knew there was no intent, it's just a plastic plod giving you grief. Most "store dicks" are either retired coppers or those who couldn't pass an entrance exam for the force and end up working for the likes of G4S.

This sounds awful. I am particularly appalled that the Garda gave you a caution in the circumstances you describe. As far as I can see you have not committed any crime. It also sounds like the caution was not issued correctly. You should not be devastated. You should be angry. Very angry.

In the UK if this went to court the prosecution would have to show that you intended to avoid paying. In the circumstances you describe to say there was reasonable doubt is putting it mildly. I have checked and confirmed that Irish law also requires intent to avoid payment - Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act 2001 S8. Having returned to the shop in order to pay you clearly did not have any intent to avoid payment. Returning to the shop with the top clearly on display is not the action of someone intent on stealing the top.

Looking at the Irish caution scheme it appears you cannot have been cautioned under Section 8 (Making off without payment) so you must have been cautioned under Section 4 (Theft). That requires intent to deprive the owner of their property. Again, the fact that you returned to the shop in order to pay clearly shows that no such intent existed.

If a caution was issued in the shop that would also appear to be contrary to the Adult Cautioning Scheme - details here. If you follow the link you will see that it says a caution must be administered in a Garda station (other than in exceptional circumstances) by a Garda Superintendent or a Garda Inspector acting as a Superintendent. Did you sign anything? If you didn't you have not been cautioned yet. If nothing further happens the male officer was simply trying to intimidate you, which is unacceptable.

I am not an expert on Irish law so it may be I am missing something but I don't think I am. I would recommend consulting a lawyer to check that what I have said is correct and, if so, whether there is anything you can do about the caution if one has been issued. You don't want a caution on your record when you did not commit an offence.

I now see that you haven't signed anything so you definitely haven't been cautioned. If you are summoned to the Garda station to be cautioned you should take legal advice but I think you will be advised to refuse to accept a caution.

If I were you I would be seriously tempted to lodge a formal complaint about the behaviour of the male Garda officer.

prh47bridge - you have it pretty much spot on there!

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/lawenforcement/adulttcautioningscheme.html

Adult cautions in Ireland are not disclosed on your record (vetting reports, police certificates). But if you are in a second "cautionary" situation they will prosecute you the next time. So it seems to be just a warning.

Certainly in English law you do have to admit guilt to be able to receive a caution, I'm not sure based on the Irish site that has been linked. I would be complaining to whatever the Irish equivalent of the Police Complaints Commission is - I'm no expert on Irish law but the fact you weren't arrested, had any access to legal advice and were given a caution in a shop instead of a police station sounds very strange. And unethical. But definitely get legal advice first.

I think you did the right thing by not saying more actually. I would be very wary of speaking to the police if accused of a crime without having a solicitor present.

Oh, and for you. What a rubbish day you've had.

I actually can't believe that the shop called the Gardai. What wonderful reasoning by the security guard. OP `I've never stolen anything'; SG 'that's what they all say'. Right. OP would have to be pretty fucking shite in her chosen career to rob stuff, get away with robbing stuff, then bring it back to the bloody shop!

devastated, I've worked in retail. I've also accidentally shoplifted a batch bread from Superquinn in The Pavilions, when it still was Superquinn. When I worked in retail, I'd have no problem with a customer coming back to me like you did. It was clearly a mistake, robbers don't tend to return their goods . When I accidentally robbed (or beeged, for anyone familiar with the lingo of my area ) the loaf of bread from Superquinn, I went back in and explained to the girl at the checkout, who looked completely bemused.

Finally, my sister was detained by a security guard in Dunnes drapey when she was 14 for robbing a Max Factor Pan Stick (pause here while I wipe away tears of mirth). She was 'cautioned' by the Gardai, which amounted to an almighty telling off, and the parents having to pick her up in the Garda station. I obviously can't be certain, but I wonder if a caution in Irish law (wrist slapping) and a caution in UK law, are rather different, as it seems from this thread that a caution in the UK goes on one's record.

Anyway, please don't lose any sleep over it m'dear, you did nothing wrong.

If you have accepted a caution you have admitted a criminal offence and now have a criminal record.

This happened to a friend of mine in Debenhams- her son (4) put a small toy in a bag of other things she had bought. She also had a 2 month old in a pushchair and was Christmas shopping. Had spent £70+ in Debenhams on other items. Toy was £11.

She was stopped by a store security person, taken into an office, the item identified, she had no receipt for it, said she had no idea how it had got there. 4 year old says 'It's mine. I put it in the bag'. CCTV not 100% clear but looks like it backs up 4 year old's story. Security insist she was in charge of 4 year old so is to blame and call police. Police try to reason with security and store manager but they insist charges are pressed as CCTV not clear. She was taken to local police station (voluntarily) She accepted a caution feeling pressured and just wanting to go home as it was after 7pm by then.(PND, mum very ill)

Solicitor is horrified -when she gets home and DH rings solicitor-but she had accepted it and signed it. She works in a primary school and had to tell her Headteacher as she now has a criminal record!

2 weeks later she got a letter from Debenhams banning her from their stores for a perid of 2 years.

WTF!