To think no-one should be able to over-rule a dead person's wishes on organ donation?

[angelos02]

I was disgusted on seeing the news that 547 people that had wanted to be organ donors were unable to do so because family members over-ruled their wishes. The patient's wishes could have improved the life of over 1200 people.

How is this allowed to happen? I can't possibly imagine the grief that these people were going through but you can't deny another human being's wishes?

I don't think people should have to donate (nor do I think they are selfish if they don't) I just believe it is down to the person what they would like to happen upon their death.

Osolea words it very well.

I also have huge admiration to anyone who gives permission for their partner/spouse/childs organs to be used, but I would never feel like the OP and be disgusted by them should they feel not be able to do it at such a traumatic time.

Buscake, so sorry for your loss and thank you for sharing your personal experience of this.

What you and your mum did in trying to donate was incredibly brave.

I can't imagine that anyone would want people they love to go through so much extra pain when they are already devestated, no matter how much they want to be able to donate.

Noone is going to come back and "haunt" their relatives for not donating their organs, whatever they might threaten now. Anger and resentment are mortal traits - the departed understand that their family have made a decision that they think is best, even if it does go against their loved one's wishes. As other pp have ponted out, it's an incredibly difficult time for the newly bereaved; I certainly wouldn't judge them.

~Honestly? 23 years after my mums death, if it had been an option to carry out her wishes and I hadn't I would, personally, find that hard to deal with and yes I thik I would be disgusted with myself. Sadly it wasn't an option. I would find it hard to deal with the fact I hadn't done this final thing for her.
It isn't easy for anyone though.

I can see this happening. One of my teenagers will not agree to be a donor where as I am of the opinion if I would be willing to accept a heart i should donate!
So will dv over rule me when I am dead and not donate and god forbid if something happened to the teen do i over rule them and donate?

I think people are worried

"I can't imagine that anyone would want people they love to go through so much extra pain when they are already devestated, no matter how much they want to be able to donate."

I'm sorry, I would.

Buscake I am certainly not judging you and what you went through sounds heartbreaking. We can all only do what we think is right at the time.

Gah i cannot even post with any sense today...

I'm for an opt-out system. In the hope the norm became that people did, and that consequently grieving families were already expecting it.

As it stands, whilst it's understandable that families in shock and grief want to say no I don't think they should be able to. I hate the idea that someone could disregard a belief I'd held cogently throughout my life.

I wonder how many families come to regret over-riding their loved one's wishes once the initial throes of grief have passed.

NoSquirrels Osolea Baressentials thank you for you considered and supportive replies My reasoning for supporting my mother was the knowledge of how much my father loved her,and how he sould have done anything to stop the torment. It sounds cliche, it sounds trite, but it is also true.

Before this, I would definitely have felt the same as previous posters not understanding why people would go against a loved ones wishes, and I don't think TV shows help either. In reality it is so drawn out and fraught, not as clear cut and simple and quick as it can appear on TV.

Buscake your experience shows the reality and the difficulty of the decision, thank you for sharing. Your mothers decision at such a difficult time should be respected.

What you said wannaBe
My DP died suddenly aged 30, I was asked in a very matter of fact way, which was rather crap, but we had never discussed his wishes. I didn't know what to do, totted it up in my head quickly, decided that an unexpected non accidental death would probably mean cornea donation only and refused. I loved his eyes so much and couldn't bear the thought of them taking them.
Personally I carry a card and don't care what gets used. That's up to my family. They have been told this.

What right has the hospital got to get relatives to sign forms? Why does the hospital think it is in charge of the body? What is stopping next of kin removing the body from the premises? Why are nurses going to police this? It is not within a nurse's remit to do this. A relative should have authority over a dead body - not a hospital or a nurse.

This is obviously the next step after the introduction of presumed consent in Wales. It is a slippery slope.

I don't think it's as straightforward as it seems. We have been through this as a family. We opted to donate because this is what the person wanted but it meant keeping them alive an extra day to complete the paperwork, before turning the machines off. In the end none of the organs could be used anyway which was disappointing. I wouldn't judge anyone for making a different decision in that kind of situation.

"This is obviously the next step after the introduction of presumed consent in Wales. It is a slippery slope."

A slippery slope to what?

Pseudonym99 What do you mean?

"Why does the hospital think it is in charge of the body?"

Technically, in law, the body of a deceased person is the responsible of the hospital.

"Why are nurses going to police this? It is not within a nurse's remit to do this."

These will be highly trained and highly specialist transplant team nurses. In my experience seeing it from the doctors' side, they are wonderfully kind, sensitive, gentle people in such a time of grief.

These situations, especially as they are so often deaths caused by major, sudden, catastrophic events, are incredibly fraught, but it may help relatives not to feel that they are having to make a decision to (as someone said their DM said, a bit melodramatically I felt as someone who really has had their "baby cut up" in a post mortem) have their "baby being cut up after death".

It may help relatives see this as the patient's last request and take away some of their own (however we might see it as misplaced) guilt as having seemingly brutal surgery performed on a loved one's dead body.

As someone who has referred people as potential donors, I have sometimes received the letter from the Transplant team, which the relatives will as well, describing, without any really identifying details, the recipients and how they are doing.

I've never received that letter without crying at the gift of life that those donors have given to patients and their relatives.

I think it is realistically the minority that are at all aware that it isn't a case of 'relative has died --> make decision'. The body still has to be alive for donation to be an option, unless I'm very much mistaken.

I'm not sure how many relatives of people on life support expect to be approached and told to make a decision on that person being operated on before machines are turned off (the point at which most would probably see the person as 'really' dead). I can imagine asking to harvest the person's organs before the relative even sees them as really dead is the problem. I agree with the change - it takes the decision from the relatives' shoulders.

What is needed is significantly more public information about the realities of donation.

All too often people have no idea what they are signing up to when they tick a box on their driving licence/boots advantage card/GP registration form, and more importantly, they often have no idea of what they are asking from their heartbroken relatives.

It is much easier to say 'yes I'll donate' than it is to say 'yes I'll hang around for the next however many hours or days while you artificially keep my child's or husbands body alive before you take what you want from it'.

Organ donation and transplant is a wonderful thing, but there should be no stigma or negativity surrounding a persons or family's choice not to do it.

YANBU

As a previous poster said, the wishes of a deceased about their property and money are adhered to, so why not their wishes in relation to their body?

I imagine that for people who join the register donating an organ is something that really matters to them and for the family to rob them of that is awful.

Imagine if a person was always against donation but upon their death a family member, who supports donations, agrees to it despite knowing it's not what their relative wanted. Would anyone ever do that? Put their own beliefs and wishes ahead of the bereaved? I would absolutely hope not.

It works both ways. If a person wanted to donate their organs then their wishes should be honoured upon their death.

I've thought quite hard about how I feel about presumed consent, and I've come to the conclusion that I quite strongly disagree with it.

One one hand I realise that it could be beneficial for families not to have to make the choice, in a similar way to the fact that they don't have a choice on whether a post mortem is carried out or not, but on the other I think 'how dare government legislation try and tell me that I don't have the right to be with my husband or child while the machines keeping their body alive are switched off'.

Yanbu. Mine have been told I'll come back and haunt them if they went back on my request.

When dad died we weren't at a squeamish about asking the doctor what they could take. Sadly all his cancer drugs heart they couldn't even take corneas but we certainly didn't avoid the issue.

Hmm that is food for thought Oselea
I haven't been in that situation where I had to choose to keep my mum alive for donation to happen so I appreciate that whilst I can say what I think would have done I actually don't know for sure.
My gut response though is that I would. Because i know that was what she wanted. ~Her whole life was about giving to others. and also (please bear with me on this as I might not word it properly) she died so suddenly, so unexpectedly, I would have liked to have had the chance to say goodbye whilst her heart was still beating (artificially or not) rather than go from seeing her alive and kicking and then 3 days later in a coffin in the chapel of rest. I could have done with the "inbetween" bit (I realise that is a crap way of putting it but I am struggling with words).
I struggle that the last thing I could do for my mum wasn't possible.

For me it comes down to the fact that my body is mine. My wishes should be respected in my death as they should be in my life. I realise we all have our own opinions often coming from our own experiences, but it genuinely does upset me that my family may not do as I wish when I die.