To think no-one should be able to over-rule a dead person's wishes on organ donation?

[angelos02]

I was disgusted on seeing the news that 547 people that had wanted to be organ donors were unable to do so because family members over-ruled their wishes. The patient's wishes could have improved the life of over 1200 people.

How is this allowed to happen? I can't possibly imagine the grief that these people were going through but you can't deny another human being's wishes?

I'm in the opposite situation. Dh doesn't want his organs donated and it really makes me cross - we've 'debated' this many times. Neither does he give blood (tried once and fainted). He's a biker too - one of the groups most likely to need blood or be able to donate organs. I've told him I'll do whatever I see fit after he's gone, although he reckons there won't be anything left worth having and he'd come back to haunt me.
Fortunately I'm not the most sensitive of people can you tell? and have never seen our local pub ghost, or any ghost fire that matter, so doubt he'd manage it!

I agree with you and BertrandRussell op. What happens to your body after you die should be up to you and no one else.

I think the law should be changed. Your body rightly belongs to you

You can't own anything after you die. Because you're dead.

The issue lies a lot closer to home though in that most likely one of the reasons why relatives refuse consent is because the deceased hadn't communicated their wishes beforehand. This isn't just about signing up to the register, it's about talking to your family about your wishes in the event of your untimely death. If they don't know what your wishes are, then they are the ones left with A, the shock of your sudden and unexpected death, and B, having to make the decision on something which had never previously been talked about at a time when there isn't time to be objective about such things or properly informed as time is of the essence.

"I am in agreement with Arf - told after the fact that your relative had donated their organs." that's not possible though as the deceased needs to be kept alive on life support until the organs can be harvested, which is done in theatre. Can you imagine the scenes if the person was simply wheeled away in front of grieving relatives because "We're going to take their organs now." You simply can't treat the living relatives that way. No time to say goodby, no time to be with their relative as they passed away having turned off the life support. Bear in mind that we're generally talking about grieving parents/partners/children here.

I'm afraid that the onus here lies with the organ donor, to make their wishes known to their next of kin at the point they sign up to the register. If you don't make your wishes known and your next of kin override them, then that is unfortunate, but communication is the key here. (And I am on the donor register and have told my family of my wishes.).

I do however find it bizarre that there are people who have said that they don't believe that your next of kin should have decision powers over your body yet are happy to want an opt-out system which essentially makes your body the property of the state unless you actively tell them otherwise. So you trust the state over your family? .

I am completely and utterly against an opt out system, and it seems that the Welsh are in agreement as thousands of people had already opted out on the first day and are continuing to do so. I would far rather my family made the decisions than that I lose all bodily autonomy and become the property of the state on my death. I am currently on the register, but if opt-out ever becomes law in this country I will be opting out.

I hope all these people who refuse consent or aren't on the register would refuse to take a donated organ if they needed one and it was available. Works both ways.

Really don't understand why people would object. Once you are dead you are dead and until reincarnation is invented that ain't changing.

If organs can be donated they should be. What about the people that die while waiting for transplants? surely they should be given the best chance of life over someone who is sadly gone.

I'm on the register and would be outraged if my next of kin denied my clear wishes, particularly as the last time I spoke with my family was 2014. They should have no rights over my body. I'm a biker, I accept the increased risk of sudden and violent death, I would like my parts to be useful to someone else if the worst happens.

People's 'wishes' get overruled all the time, especially on the NHS. People's wishes don't suddenly become sacrosanct just because they have died.

People are highly unlikely to override their deceased loved ones wishes lightly, it's not like they're going to do it on a whim just for the sake of it.

The organ harvesting process isn't just as simple as people being told their loved one has died, they make the choice and then the machines get switched off straight away. There can be hours in between, and some people might want to be there with their relative when the machines are switched of and they properly die (as in when their body stops working as well as their brain).

Anyone who would judge someone even a little bit negatively for a choice they make at the most devestating time of their lives when their brain is slipping into the most awful shock imaginable can't have experienced the pain of losing someone they love very suddenly with no warning.

Just because the thought of organ donation is very comforting for some people, it will still be very painful for others, in both the thought of it and the reality of having to wait around while it happens. There is a balance to be struck between the wishes of the deceased and the wishes of the relatives, but ultimately, the relatives are the ones that have to live with it.

PS can you still get a card to carry?

Something else just occurred to me about this. I am next of kin for my mum who's in her late 70s. I don't know if they'd take an organ from her at her age but lets say for the sake of argument that they would (or imagine she's 20 years younger). Something happens and she's a match for someone on the transplant list. I live 3 hours away. What happens if they can't contact me quickly enough? Would they just let the opportunity go? I think that would be very sad.

I know you need to tell your relatives your wishes - this has always been an open conversation within my family, right from being a child - I know the wishes of all my close relatives.

But even if they had not discussed it with me, the fact that they were signed up to the organ donation register - they had expressed their wishes by doing so - well, then I couldn't go against that. i cannot imagine how anyone does.

It's not the same as refusing to donate when you didn't know their wishes. The the decision is understandable that you might hesitate to know what to do for the best.

I feel sad that many relatives do this but I don't feel judgemental towards them. I've had a liver transplant and know full well that if it wasn't for bereaved relatives making a brave, v difficult decision, I would have died.

Anotheruser name1 - they wld try and contact you by phone, if you said I'll be with you in three hours face to face they could probably continue to ventilate (if that was the case) for that long or do everything over the phone. There's a ranked list of relationships and they would try to speak to the next person if they couldn't speak to you.

Age is less of a factor than lots of us think, most of us who die in a way in which donation is possible could donate something!

Well said Osolea

I want absolute control over my body - now and when I am dead. No one should have the right to over rule my rights.

If someone has registered they have made a conscious decision to donate and that decision should be respected. But you should be able to register for yes or no as relatives shouldn't be able to say yes either if someone is against it. In other words no relative should be able to overide your wishes about your own body - be that yes or no to donate.

I have huge admiration for parents who allow their children's organs to be used. As osolea says, it must be the worst moment of their life, and to have the courage to think of others' needs - they're proper heroes. Surely it's a comfort to know that your decision gave life to others?

YANBU. I have a medical condition that would make my corpse useful to medical science, and thats what I want to do with it. If it turns out they can then give it to medical students to practice on, then even better.

But my family are horrified and dont know if they can deal with it.
With bloody what? Its not like they have to hand it over personally! They wont even see it.

I cannot find any legal way to make it happen and I'm really upset about it. I know damn well a grave would be neglected. I'd just like a memorial tree planted in a woodlands somewhere instead of a funeral.

It's not as simple as it sounds. My father died about 2 months ago following a massive stroke at the age of 59. He was in good health and the hospital team said that once his brain stem died we would be able to donate all his organs apart from his lungs (he developed a chest infection while unresponsive in hospital). We met the transplant nurse who explained the process would take at least 12 hours after brain stem death- to take very detailed info of my fathers lifestyle, history etc and also to send out this info to the various teams to find matches. Then these recipients would have to come to the hospital, and then they would finally turn off the machines keeping my father alive when in theatre, and hopefully find that the organs were in good enough nick for the recipients.

This was absolutely what we wanted to do, what my father would have wanted as well. However, after an incredibly painful 48hours of watching him utterly deteriorate but still not yet be clinically brain stem dead, my mother made the heartbreaking decision to take him off the ventilator. It sounds like no time to wait,but honestly time went backwards, the emotions and agony we were experiencing were almost tangible. we couldn't take a further minimum 12hours, let alone the idea that it could be longer than that. I wish we could have donated his organs, I really do, and I feel it may haunt me. However I supported my mothers decision. As it was,he was brain dead when he was taken off the machines. A heartbreaking experience that has changed me forever. So please don't judge families who change their loved ones wishes 'on paper', it is much more complicated than I had ever imagined.

Osolea - that is a good post - I absolutely do not judge anyone negatively for their choice, but at the same time I just can't imagine why they'd go against expressed wishes of the deceased. I don't judge them, but I don't understand them. To make the decision if my DC died suddenly would be awful, and I hope I would do the right thing. In my mind that is a little different, though - I would be choosing for myself and my partner what to do with a DC's organs who had died, my DC are currently too young to sign up for any register. But for an adult DC who had expressed their wishes by signing up, or a young teenager who we'd had the discussion about it with and knew their opinions on it, then I could not overrule them.

I equally don't think that if someone doesn't want to donate that their relatives should be able to over-rule that. In fact I think that is worse.

I do strongly believe that if you are not willing to be a donor, you should not believe in taking an organ from someone else. You either believe in organ donation or you don't.

I agree OP. My body belongs to me whilst I am alive. I have the right to decide what happens to it when I die. If a loved one died I would never go against what they wanted. It is the last thing you can do for them, abide by their wishes, and my grieving shouldn't trump that.

Terrible X-post. Thank you, Buscake. I am very sorry for your loss, and I am very grateful for you sharing your experience.

The thing is, people tend to agree that those who have made the choice to donate their loved ones organs are brave, heroes, courageous, should be admired, and it is agreed that it is a very difficult descision.

Why then, if people aren't able to be brave, heroic and courageous when they are going through a horrifically painful experience do they become selfish if they can't bring themselves to do something so difficult?

Osolea I did lose someone close. My mum suddenly when I was 16. I still feel the way I do. If she had been found earlier then there is no way I would have stopped her wishes.