To think no-one should be able to over-rule a dead person's wishes on organ donation?

[angelos02]

I was disgusted on seeing the news that 547 people that had wanted to be organ donors were unable to do so because family members over-ruled their wishes. The patient's wishes could have improved the life of over 1200 people.

How is this allowed to happen? I can't possibly imagine the grief that these people were going through but you can't deny another human being's wishes?

Look it's easy for me to say I would like to donate my organs (I would).
But I cannot promise that should some tragedy befall my DC, I wouldn't want to be with them until their final breath. As long as they are warm and breathing I think I would want to be with them in their last moments. I don't know, maybe I would be a lot more practical about it, I couldn't say. But I can understand family deciding that their loved one has been through enough and deserves to just rest and be in peace.
And although I would be glad to donate, I couldn't think badly of my DCs for making a different decision at the time.
Maybe that is hypocritical.

I have poor coping skills?

Eh?

Sorry, the I wasn't meant to be there.

Change the I to the poster you were talking to.

Doing two things at once is never a good idea when posting.

I have to say that sometimes I think I'm an unemotional cow, I see things in a very black and white way. But "poor coping skills"?!

Fucking hell.

You have no right ot accept an organ if you stop someone else from donating. Its not your decision.

Well actually I do have the right to accept an organ no matter what I decide for my husband/children/ myself . It also is my decision if I am the next of kin. Like it or not.

And I do know what it is like to wait for someone to receive a donation.

We waited ages for my children's father to receive bone marrow. I know what it is like to hang on for that gift knowing it is the only chance they have of life. I understand what it is like.

I would never want to live in a world where I have to be willing to donate to receive. Thankfully, the powers that be agree with me.

Legally that may be the case U2. Morally I would argue that it is not.

Washediris I have tried to read lots of posts but not all so may I ask if this is personal to you, e.g. you have lost a child,. Please do not say if you do not wish to. I am sorry if I have missed a vital post in this debate but I came to it late and there are so many posts.

In terms of a grieving parents wishes should always be the priority... Can I ask why that is?

Obviously if I were the grieving parent I would feel my feelings and needs would come first.

But if I were a parent about to lose a child to a treatable disease I would feel my needs (or rather my child's) should come first.

As myself, an impartial bystander at this moment, I feel the desire of the person who has died, their wishes prior to death are paramount, and no one should be able to override those wishes unless the deceased was themselves a child under the age of 18. In those circumstances I feel I would still want to follow the wishes of my child but I recognise that, thankfully, not being in that position, I may not know exactly how I would feel.

I don't think morals really come into it though when you are grieving. I think it is morally wrong to treat organs like they are a commodity.

The thought of my husband dying in the theatre after they have taken his organs is a harder thought than him dying with me by his side. Would I want his heart to keep beating, artificially while they take what they need from him? Or would I just want to see his suffering ended, with me by his side? Would I want him to go through another invasive procedure or would I want him to be left in peace? It's easy to say they are dead in every way that matters, but it is different when it is a person you love laying there.

I honestly can't say with 100% certainty I could do it. I hope I could, but I just don't know, and just because I might not be able to cope with that doesn't mean I shouldn't receive a donation if I ever need one from people who could cope with making the decision of donating someone's organs.

I would have no problem with my organs going to someone who wouldn't donate themselves. I want to donate my organs to help someone else; no strings attached.

DH doesn't want his organs donated but I do. It would trouble me not to donate his organs (if the situation ever arose) and it would trouble him to donate my organs but we would both respect the wishes of the other. We have just had a chat about it. We have written it into our wills too. Not because that is that useful but just so it's a definite statement.

DH didn't realize our 4 DC are all on the organ donation register so it's good we had a chat about it.
I'd be ok for medical research but I know it's a bit complicated so I haven't done anything about it. DD is a medical student do I know what happens to the bodies. It sounds respectful.

I think generally that the dead persons wishes shouldn't be overruled but I can understand it's complicated.

There is too much crossover between what's morally right or wrong for there to be a one size fits all answer.

It is morally right that sick patients who need a transplant be given every possible chance of survival.

It is morally right that a family who has been told someone they love is never going to recover is given every understanding over the way they feel by the medical professionals dealing with them.

Until consent is given, the possibility of organs being used for transplant doesn't really exist.

People who sign up to be donors are expressing a wish, that is all. It's no more or less than that, its just something that might happen if a whole heap of other circumstances fall into place.

10 years ago today my EXH had his organs harvested for transplant, eventually saving the lives if 5 people and improving the lives of several others. I was able to tell the tranplsnt team that he wanted to donate, and thankfully his father took me at my word despite his reservations. However I still don't understand why this was necessary. Ex was on the register, anf although he had been declared brain dead ge was still on the machines and legally still alive. As I understand it, donors are often still on life support so as a legal living being surely their wishes should come first? Is it possible to write a legal document that covers a situation where a living person still on life support can refuse the wishes of the next of kin? After all, they won't be legally dead until after the organs are harvested.

Also I feel I should add that actually I don't really care how the next if kin may feel about it, if it's what the person wanted thry should respect it and do it anyway. Living in a world where we would let other people die due to lack of donors to spare feelings is very wrong, what's more important, saving a life or sparing a feeling?

It was not me who mentioned coping skills and I don't personally have anything to say about that except that it is not the job of the person about to die to help others cope with their death and of course the medical team should all they can to be respect of next of kin/family but in my humble opinion this foes not override their responsibility to respect the wishes of the deceased.

Re People who sign up to be donors are expressing a wish, that is all. I am not sure that is true.

www.organdonation.nhs.uk/register-to-donate/more-information-about-your-choices/

It says "... please register your decision with us....." In what way is the choice of a living person to donate their organs after death, coupled with the action to do so, only 'a wish'?

Sorry, typos....

"...the medical team should do all they can to be respect the views of next of kin/family but in my humble opinion this does not override their responsibility to respect the wishes of the deceased.

In the way that plenty of people die in places other than hospital, or in circumstances that are not conducive to donation.

I do have a look on that website from time to time to see if it's changed at all, it hasn't which I think is disappointing. There is literally nothing on there that explains what the donation process entails for donors and their families, even in the real life stories and myth busting sections.

And then they wonder why so many families refuse consent despite knowing their relative had registered.

Then there was this gem

If your family or relatives object to the donation when you made your decision clear before you died, we will:

discuss the matter with them,
encourage them to accept your decision, and
make it clear that they do not have the legal right to override your decision.

So a person will be told that someone they love is never going to recover, they've stated that they cannot agree to donation for their own personal reasons, and they have to be told they have no legal right to prevent their relatives organs being taken from their still functioning body! As if the doctors are doing them a favour. And they are encouraged to change their minds! Not just given the full facts, offered counselling and given time and space to think it over, they are actively encouraged to change their minds.

I find that disgusting tbh. I'd hope the reality isn't quite as harsh as it comes across on the website, and the professionals involved are trained enough and sensitive enough to know when to step back.

In my mind, it really does have to be remembered that with such a lack of information, even for those people who think about their choice and bother to take the time to go on the website, people are highly likely to have no idea what they are signing their bodies or their relatives up to.

For any person who suggests receiving an organ should be linked to a willingness to contribute organs....

Receiving an organ is simply a matter of clinical need. It is not, and should not ever be, a reward for good behaviour/altruism.

I say this as someone who has carried a card since I was at primary school, and as the sister of a person who died waiting for an organ.

I honestly can't say with 100% certainty I could do it. I hope I could, but I just don't know

I completely understand this, U2, but in my view that's the very reason that this decision should not be left up to grief-stricken family members who are having to deal with the worst news of their lives. Having to make this decision at all places an intolerable burden on them at an already terrible time, as well as potentially overriding the wishes of the deceased and, most importantly, missing the opportunity to save a life.

Oh, and to make it clear - I don't think people should ever be criticised for decisions they make at a time when they are deeply bereaved.

Cel982 re ...in my view that's the very reason that this decision should not be left up to grief-stricken family members who are having to deal with the worst news of their lives. Completely agree.

Matildatoldsuchdreadfullies I am so sorry to hear about your sister.

Osolea may I ask if this is something you have personally encountered, the loss of a loved one and decisions about organ donation? Please do not say if you do not wish to. Thank you.

Re So a person will be told that someone they love is never going to recover, they've stated that they cannot agree to donation for their own personal reasons, the body of their loved one is not their body, it is not their body to decide what happens to, surely, legally this is the case.

Whether one wants to donate one's own body is a matter for one's once choice. And I would expect relatives to respect that choice.

Please can I ask, when you are talking about organs being taken from a still functioning body what are you referring to, someone who is brain dead/someone whose body is being kept artificially alive or another scenario?

I have lost someone close to me, and experienced other bereavements, but I have not personally been in the position of having to make a choice about consenting to organ donation.

When I talk about or as being taken from a still functioning body, I am talking about one that is being kept artificially alive.

Whether someone wants to donate their organs is of course their own choice, but to pretend it has no effect on other people is just plain wrong.

I just cannot agree that families should be able to over-ride an wish expressed by an individual- a decision that they have made (whether that choice was to donate or not to donate). I think it is very wrong.

This is why I agree with Cel- in my view that's the very reason that this decision should not be left up to grief-stricken family members who are having to deal with the worst news of their lives. If the decision was made by the person whilst they were living, and that decision was either "yes, if it is possible to donate organs then that is what I wish to do" or "no, I do not want organs to be donated" the grieving would not have the burden of making this decision at this incredibly difficult time.

After all, we can all make "advanced decisions to refuse treatment" or ADRT (sometimes called living wills)- provided you are over 18 and are judged to have capacity at the time the decision is made. The document must be signed, dated and witnessed and must be specific as any ambiguities can lead to the decision being invalidated and so on (and can be revoked or revised at any time by the individual). Nevertheless, it is legally binding and whilst is open to challenge through the courts, the only reason such a challenge is likely to be over-turned is if there was evidence the individual lacked capacity at the time the decision was made or was coerced into making the decision in some way. Family simply disagreeing with the decision would be highly unlikely to succeed. I think something similar could be put in place for organ donation, whether the individual's choice is definitely for donation, or definitely against donation.

Whether someone wants to donate their organs is of course their own choice, but to pretend it has no effect on other people is just plain wrong

But if families get the final say, then that it is not someones choice whether their organs are donated- it is actually completely down to their family.

Also, I don't think anyone is suggesting that the situation has no effect on the family, I think everyone realises that whichever choice is made it will effect the family- of course it will. But so would having an advanced decision to refuse treatment (ADTR)- the family will lose their loved one when it possible that treatment of some sort/resuscitation may have prolonged (or perhaps saved) their lives. That has an effect on the individuals family- but we do not let that prevent the existence of, and adherence to, the ADTR. The reason being that we judge that a person has a right to decide on what happens to them during their life. I would argue that individuals should also have the right to decide what happens to them in death.

folk do funny things while grieving .i am not on the register because my hubby said he would never allow me or children to donate .he hates the thought but to give him his due he says he would never accept one either .i dont mind for myself have told my sons if hubby goes then i die they can do what they feel at the time but while hubby living there is no point .