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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder if you know anyone who has never really worked?

302 replies

doitanyways · 30/12/2015 15:47

If so, how did their life pan out?

In particular, what did they do after retirement age?

OP posts:
DistanceCall · 31/12/2015 12:56

But really, I do understand how painful this must be for you. Please believe me when I say that I mean all I say kindly. I think you really should get some support for yourself - counselling, therapy, or something similar. This is a really hard situation to be in.

knobblyknee · 31/12/2015 12:58

Yes, my first BF's mum - and she had a university education. And a childhood friend with cerebral palsy.

BeyondCBA · 31/12/2015 13:00

People can be severely autistic and still be happy, or at the other end and less 'obvious' but not coping at all. Intelligence is not indicative of how much someone is struggling.

MessedUpWheelieBin · 31/12/2015 13:00

Without commenting on where the OP's brother might be at, would like to point out that High Functioning relates to IQ levels, not the ability or inability to manage.
Plenty of people with HFA need a great deal of help and support to manage quite basic things. Others manage, well, or badly, with varying degrees of help or none.

DistanceCall · 31/12/2015 13:02

Beyond CBA, I haven't mentioned happiness at all, because, as you say, it is not related to intelligence.

And, as I said, the OP's brother clearly needs help and support. But he's refusing it, possibly because his sister is always there for him, so he doesn't have to "stoop" to accept it.

doitanyways · 31/12/2015 13:02

maybe he needs to get a job not related to his profession

I know! But he won't. Actually, he's lost a few jobs like this - agency ones, being sent home for 'saying something inappropriate'.

So yes I do agree that if he was a NT functioning person advice like 'get a job' would be useful but honestly where autism is concerned it isn't.

Believe me as well, he is far from being a genius, that's his perception.

OP posts:
BeyondCBA · 31/12/2015 13:04

Plus, the effect of trying to be 'normal' on a person with HFA for a period of time has a culmulative effect on your mental health and many autistic people cope with uni/'the world of work' at first, only to crack in late twenties/early thirties.

StatisticallyChallenged · 31/12/2015 13:05

"He is not disabled"

Really?! The Equality Act guidance specifically mentions Autism:

"Disability has a broad meaning. It is defined as a physical or mental impairment that has a substantial and long-term adverse effect on the ability to carry out normal day-to-day activities.‘Substantial’ means more than minor or trivial. ‘Impairment’ covers, for example, long-term medical conditions such as asthma and diabetes, and fluctuating or progressive conditions such as rheumatoid arthritis or motor neurone disease. A mental impairment includes mental health conditions (such as bipolar disorder or depression), learning difficulties (such as dyslexia) and learning disabilities (such as autism
and Down’s syndrome)."

Government guidance also doesn't actually state that an official diagnosis is required - although it is generally beneficial in that it makes it easier to enforce your rights.

From a different doc, also govt:
"The Act defines a disabled person as a person with a disability. A person has a disability for the purposes of the Act if he or she has a physical or mental impairment and the impairment has a substantial and long-term adverse effect on his or her ability to carry out normal day-to-day activities (S6(1)).
A2. This means that, in general:
• the person must have an impairment that is either physical or
mental (see paragraphs A3 to A8);
• the impairment must have adverse effects which are substantial
(see Section B);
• the substantial adverse effects must be long-term (see Section C);
and
• the long-term substantial adverse effects must be effects on
normal day-to-day activities (see Section D)."

The paragraphs further down mention developmental disorders such as autism, but it also states further down that:
"The term mental or physical impairment should be given its ordinary meaning. It is not necessary for the cause of the impairment to be established, nor does the impairment have to be the result of an illness" and "It is the effects of these impairments that need to be considered, rather than the underlying conditions themselves"

I have Aspergers - I'm high functioning, hold down a well paid job and only got diagnosed in my late 20s. In spite of appearances (most people would never know) it most certainly is a disability.

BeyondCBA · 31/12/2015 13:05

Trust me, there are loads here who did exactly that.

DistanceCall · 31/12/2015 13:07

My point is, please don't sacrifice your life for your brother, OP. It may be that he needs to get worse before official agencies take care of him whether he likes it or not.

You love him, and I'm certain you have done and will do everything you can to help him. But don't sacrifice yourself to be his carer to the extent of giving up your own life (and here I speak from personal experience with people very close to me).

I'm very sorry to say this, but it may be that your brother won't or can't be saved.

VintageDresses · 31/12/2015 13:09

A friend's adult son who's one of the most obviously autistic people I've ever met, lives in supported but independent living accommodation. Is that not a possibility?

MessedUpWheelieBin · 31/12/2015 13:14

I really feel for you and understand what you're going through but if you know he has autism and it's behind it all, then in your heart of hearts you must also know unless there's some further follow through plan then "if I can get him to a point where he's living in a decent home, his overdraft is paid off and there aren't any outstanding debts" then what you will have done is fixed the symptoms of how his life has been affected, and made it look better so he can fall again from that point.

On it's own, how ever well meant, it's a lovely NT solution that would be a great gift for a NT person struggling in that situation, waiting on a 'right' job to come along, but how much does that actually fix the real problem here, if you think about it?
I really am sorry, because I do get your very real desire to help him survive.

doitanyways · 31/12/2015 13:15

Not even a remote one - the idea that he needs some form of assistance would be met with outrage.

OP posts:
doitanyways · 31/12/2015 13:15

I know MessedUp, but what else can I realistically do?

OP posts:
toofunny · 31/12/2015 13:17

Same old story here, poor people who work moaning about poor people who don't and completely failing to realise how many rich people have never worked. They wouldn't know about them, because they never see them. I know more than one of them. One lives in a huge mansion, never worked in his life, now retired. He worked "on paper" though and paid NI because he calculated that he'd make a profit, he was right!

BeyondCBA · 31/12/2015 13:19

Dont know if it would help him, but on the subject of diagnosis and his one goal. Do you think you could get him to view diagnosis as a challenge, explain how hard it is, especially in someone as especially clever as he is?

(This would also mean he'd have legal protection re "personality clashes" should he manage to get the ellusive perfect job...)

doitanyways · 31/12/2015 13:21

I know, I've tried this angle and it did seem to be working - in the sense that very slowly he was coming round to the idea, and then he started talking to someone with autism diagnosed as an adult (the clinic put him in touch with her) and she stated it had ruined her life, so that was that.

He went to his GP ranting and raging, demanding it be taken off his medical notes (of course it couldn't be!) and sent me several messages accusing me of trying to ruin his life!

OP posts:
StatisticallyChallenged · 31/12/2015 13:25

Diagnosis might be very beneficial from a work perspective tbh. I don't know what profession he is/was in, but I'm also training for one which sounds not entirely dissimilar (professional body, etc) and it was problems in the workplace (bullying, being pushed out for issues that were autism related) that finally drove me to get a diagnosis. I worked for a large company, and the second I had that diagnosis a lot changed - I was lucky to have a manager who I think saw it as a challenge and went away, researched Asperger's, stepped in over bullying colleague, etc. I also got coaching from an external company to help me work out what to tell people and how and identify issues I experienced.

I went from being pushed out for what amounted to personality clashes and communication difficulties to getting consistent good ratings, and have since left and got a better job. Diagnosis is not a career killer.

doitanyways · 31/12/2015 13:26

I know, but I'm not the one who needs to be persuaded.

OP posts:
ottothedog · 31/12/2015 13:26

Hi op. I just achieved success getting my brother into the system aged 40. He agreed to let me be his appointee for benefits. I sold this to him as being less hassle for him. Its a v easy process. I also laid foundations by phoning his gp to tell him exactly what he was like/what was going on. He did susequently agree to go to consultant appts if i arranged it all for him as a 'fait accompli'. I then applied for pip (doesnt need a diagnosis) and esa. I had to take it to appeal over a year but got it. As his appointee i went to all appeals/did all form filling.
I also found out you cam claim ni credits even if not working or caring or claiming benefits

StatisticallyChallenged · 31/12/2015 13:31

I know OP, just thought a view from someone who's been there as an adult might help :)

MessedUpWheelieBin · 31/12/2015 13:36

I have to go, (to care for someone!) but somehow, and I know it's a big somehow, you have to work on getting him to recognise either his problems, or yours. He can't call all the shots and get the help.
Fixing symptoms, doesn't fix the problem, and sometimes things have to get worse before they can get better.

I can only refer you back to my long post and others who 'get' this situation, and wish you luck.

PS note ottothedog's last sentence in particular.

Kleinzeit · 31/12/2015 14:07

the idea that he needs some form of assistance would be met with outrage.

Oh yes, I get that. Which is another reason why I wouldn’t move in with him. In the end he will need outside assistance and you don’t want to be cohabiting with the outrage while it happens.

He can't call all the shots and get the help.

Wise words from messedup

In my experience once you get past the outrage and you reach the fait accompli it usually gets better. I don’t know if it’s the same for everyone but certainly in my family it’s all the anxiety and agitation beforehand that is so terrible; once a big scary decision is made and enacted despite all resistance there’s been surprisingly little resentment afterwards. There’s unspoken relief (because after all it really is better this way!) or simply acceptance of a new stable situation. Your brother’s personality may be different of course.

If you cannot get him to agree to get help for himself, then for your own survival you will need very tight boundaries. Things you will do for him and things you will not. Times you are available and times you are not. Money you will give him and money you will not. Do remember to look after yourself Flowers

ottothedog · 31/12/2015 14:17

Yes, kleinzeit, we also found that there was an unspoken relief and peace afterwards. My brother resisted fiercely for years. It took a long time.
Op, i wouldnt worry so much about retirement etc, esp if you can get him on ni credits from now on (and perhaps fill in a few gaps in his ni record). Once retired, benefits will be there (imo). Its the time before retirement that is hard if they wont claim esa/jsa

Sunbeam1112 · 31/12/2015 14:17

I just want to say having a disability doesn't necessary mean you cannot work. I had a friend in a wheelchair from uni who works and my ex is disabled and has a job in at a bank. I think too many people are quick to get these carers allowances for people.i never once claimed it when looking after my ex following major leg surgery. Once my maternity leave was up I went to work.I understand parents who have afew young kids and no childcare but one of them should contribute to the household. Nothing worse than seeing two parents staying at home one is capable of supporting the household not the state.