Do you know any misogynistic women?

[ovaryhill]

I've been reading a bit about this and wondered how common it is.
Has anyone had any experience of this?
I know at least one woman who behaves as if she hates other women and is very derogatory about women in general, agrees that wearing short skirts means you're asking for trouble kind of thing, sees other women as a threat and would prefer to work for men
Any opinions or experience?

Are they really of the mind that all the women they meet are bitchy, and all men are lovely? I don't buy it.

No, not one person said all women are bitchy and all men are great.

I have met many arsehole men and many lovely women, but on the whole the people who have judged me, singled me out, froze me out of social groups have all been women.

That said Theydontknow raised some really interesting points and it is really making me think about my position. Although I don't see that behaviour from men as normal or boys will be boys, a recent event in my son's life made it obvious that many people do see it that way. Also the self fulfilling prophecy thing is interesting.

Its to do with society's expectation that a woman above all else must be nice. That's so far from the truth I can't begin to tell you. Niceness is not a quality valued in today's 'society' -from either women or men.

As the mother of a small boy, I'd suggest that there's a certain amount of confirmation bias going on here (only taking note of the stuff you expect to see, not even registering the stuff that doesn't fit your conceptual model). I spend a lot of time trying to help DS negotiatr the shifting sands of small child friendship groups - the "A and B were friends with me yesterday and we all played together but today C is A's new friend and he won't let me join in..." stuff. I sometimes think it's indicative of how strongly language conditions what we see that because "bitchy" is a word applied to women/girls we get to the point where exactly the same behaviours in men/boys become invisible. I know that the bitchiest behaviour I've seen in the workplace was among male academics!

1 of my Dds got on better with boys than girls mainly because she is into super heroes and comic books and at High school she was called all sorts of names from weird to slut for hanging out with boys at 1 point she was shagging all her lad friends she was 14 and in bits because of this her confidence was shattered and she started to question her ^weirdness so yes groups of girls can be mean and nasty and work in packs to bring other girls down.

the bitchiest behaviour I've seen in the workplace was among male academics! I have no doubt that is true.
You're right Lurcio about playground behaviour which can be equally nasty amongst boys and girls. However june describes a typical 10 year old girl behaviour which
happens every year and always takes staff by surprise. It takes a lot of careful negotiation.

I am prepared to bet that much of the observation of bitchyness is confirmation bias. Society doesn't want women to gather in groups, so when they do they are called bitchy cliques.

Another thought - there may also be issues about entrenched power structures. Being bitchy may be a way of exerting control over your surroundings when the real power lies elsewhere. Hence the female boss who knows she will be hung out to dry by her superiors if she strays from the rule book while male managers at her level are "allowed to use their initiative" may end up trying to control her staff with "bitchiness" because it's the only weapon available to her.

may end up trying to control her staff with "bitchiness" because it's the only weapon available to her. The poor lamb. How about dealing with people fairly?

Intersting how many women have posted here and mentioned asd or asd-style traits and say they get on better with men. Especially given the old "male brain" theories Especially interesting to me given that the women i socialise easiest with are also on the spectrum and "get on better with men"

Want to see some misogynists here? The toilet thread. Oodles of biological reasons pointed out why women take longer to use the bathroom, yet its all taking photos with their friends and pissing about.

" I see it regularly and truly believe that women are expected to be nice and judged if they are not. That niceness is conditioned into women. It may not be your truth but it is mine."

I agree. any sort of not nice behaviour in women is seen as aggressive or bitchy or any other number of negative words.

I think you have been highly unlucky to be surrounded by women you can't click with and men who are only interested for the sex you can give them

A few posters have said this comment is sexist but they have missed the fact that anyfucker was responding to a poster who said she has been unable to click with women and the only men interested in her seem more interested in having sex with her. Anyfucker did not say men are only friends with women for sex!

Obviously it's a shit strategy, Derxa, and I totally agree that in a workplace which was decently run it wouldn't and shouldn't be allowed to happen. But I'm interested in why people behave the way they do, and why bad behaviour in workplaces is gendered. Bad male bosses IME bluster and bully and belittle, and yes, for some bad female bosses , they manage by bitchiness. But the choice of behaviour doesn't happen in a vacuum, there are all sorts of cultural expectations about what counts as tolerated (rather than acceptable) behaviours for men and women.

bluster and bully and belittle I have a bad experience of a female HT who did this very thing. It was a horrible poisonous place by the time she left. However previous HTs were also female and it was a wonderful workplace full of laughter. The horrible HT was psychologically inadequate and that is obviously true of many male bosses as well.

derxa I was going to post something similar!

In the cases of women bosses, being vile isn't going to get the best out of their staff, so it actually is less effective. They won't get respect for it either.

It's interesting that some posters are explaining a woman boss's bad behaviour by saying that their choices aren't made in a vacuum and that ultimately they can't help it as its the only weapon available and that this is the way that they have learnt from society, and yet women who get on with men better are being labelled as misogynistic.

If someone behaves like a cunt, then they need to take responsibility for that. To blame society for it is a total cop out. And by explaining it as social conditioning etc, you are ultimately saying that 'the poor soul can't help it, it's all the fault of the big bad men who have made her behave like that'.

I can tell you one thing. I've met far more people who expect women to be bitchy than I have women who are actually are bitchy.

Was jumped on before for pointing this out, but it seems like posters here are forming a "bitchy clique". If that's not right, please could someone explain? Genuine question.

It's just that several posters, including myself, have pointed out in a measured way that we have observed we tend to have more male friends. Various explanations have been offered that don't blame women but are based on societal explanations - eg. preferring activities that girls are normally conditioned to reject.

And yet, we have been called unintelligent, have it implied there is something wrong with us, we're misogynistic etc. Actually this sort of weird rejection , feeling like everyone else has such a different experience to me and won't accept the difference, is what makes me feel like an outsider and not accepted by women, and crucially, like their is a catty clique that I'm outside of, no matter how much I try to explain and understand using logic and reason.

is what makes me feel like an outsider and not accepted by women, and crucially, like their is a catty clique that I'm outside of, no matter how much I try to explain and understand using logic and reason. You have to understand that on here for some people women's behaviour is always beyond reproach or explained by repression. There is no attempt to see men and women as individuals whose treatment of others can be absolutely reprehensible.

And whilst I believe in equality for the sexes, I don't identify as a feminist, partly because of this idea that society has conditioned women - we all have to take responsibility for our own actions. I'm uncomfortable with an idea that allows people to behave in a certain way and excuse it by blaming 'society'.

We all make choices and have to live with the consequences.

I guess what I'm trying to say (badly) is that people just need to take responsibility for who they are and how they behave. If you act like a wanker, own that behaviour.

The comment about men being higher status friends is interesting. I used to know a few women who said they got on better with men than women - this was largely because these women considered themselves amazingly sexy and they thought that any negativity from other women was down to jealousy. In reality the negativity was down to the women in question being vain - it wasn't friendship that they had with these men, but it suited them to hang out with her in case they 'got lucky'.

I have also said I get on better with men but that is on a mates level. I am very unattractive and gave up sex years ago so it has to be on that level. They treat me like they treat each other - the same can't be said about how I have been treated by other women.

(I'm sure one of the FWR posters will rip my post apart due to them being more practiced at arguing feminist theory, but that's just how I perceive things.)

element I was thinking the same - but apparently women can't help it so that's okay then.

Could someone tell me how I can disagree without being part of a bitchy clique?

"And whilst I believe in equality for the sexes, I don't identify as a feminist, partly because of this idea that society has conditioned women - we all have to take responsibility for our own actions. I'm uncomfortable with an idea that allows people to behave in a certain way and excuse it by blaming 'society'"

There is a significant differences between trying to understand and explain behaviour and allowing or excusing it. On a thread like this, surely understanding and explaining is important?

Could someone tell me how I can disagree without being part of a bitchy clique? I don't think you are part of a bitchy clique but some posters can be very robust and blinkered and do go in for the kill. I don't mean on this thread though. Nasty cliques form sometimes and I usually retreat before someone questions my intelligence.

I appreciate this thread has moved on somewhat but I need to reply to Strawberry tall cake: I never said that MIL and SIL's tastes were wrong or bad. There is no judgement from me at all.

However, when I ask for either a pint or a gin and tonic they quite clearly exchange glances. When I mentioned I had taken done some diy they were horrified as it was man's work.

They are doing the judging. Not me.

You've only got to watch a reality TV show such as Big Brother to see that male bullying tends to go unnoticed, (unless extreme) whereas female bullying makes front page headlines. Pretty sure it's similar in schools and workplaces.