Do you know any misogynistic women?

[ovaryhill]

I've been reading a bit about this and wondered how common it is.
Has anyone had any experience of this?
I know at least one woman who behaves as if she hates other women and is very derogatory about women in general, agrees that wearing short skirts means you're asking for trouble kind of thing, sees other women as a threat and would prefer to work for men
Any opinions or experience?

Bertrand just state your case.

I agree with Abby and Derxa and derxa when she said "You have to understand that on here for some people women's behaviour is always beyond reproach or explained by repression. There is no attempt to see men and women as individuals whose treatment of others can be absolutely reprehensible".

I've said that on FWR and get slated for it but I actually find it misogynistic that no matter how awful a woman behaves there will always be some excuse made for her .
For example the discussion about Miley Cyrus' appalling video where the majority view seemed to be the video was appalling but we were only supposed to criticise the terrible, male marketing machine , not Cyrus' active collaboration.

A man on the other hand is always just plain awful of his own making. For example the thread about how awful Tyson Furey is (which he is) No one grants him an inch of slack although it could be said he was influenced and formed by being a product of a particular very deprived background which is also peculiarly overly macho (and he's as thick as 2 short planks).

In my view both are grown ups and are responsible for and are legitimate targets for criticism. I think it is misogynistic to not treat grown women as grown women when they behave badly.

I said earlier that I am unlikely to warm to anyone who describes themselves as "a man's woman" or "a woman's woman "- both seem equally blinkered.

Actually I don't think it is important to explain or suggest reasons for that kind of behaviour. If someone acts like an asshole, then the reasons behind it aren't relevant if you are on the receiving end.

If a person is violent, then the reasons for that violence don't matter to their victim.

I just think we should give women credit for being able to think for themselves and be responsible for their behaviour.

I think there is a significant difference between "explain" and "excuse". Both men and women can behave appallingly. Often there are societal explanations which need to be teased out and debated. That does not mean excusing the behaviour.
There seems to be a group of people who think that they are not influenced, either consciously or unconsciously by societal expectations- which I find odd. How can they think they are immune?

Lass Absolutely - those who describe themselves as a 'man's woman' are often the type I described above and they mean 'a woman is far too beautiful to be accepted by other women'

I have seen some of your previous comments on the FWR boards (I generally only lurk) and do tend to agree with you.

The thread about the Miley video seemed ironic to me because it seemed that by blaming the male marketing machine, they themselves were infantilising Miley Cyrus.

Most bad behaviour has a reason behind it but that is for the person themselves to deal with - I am going to judge someone's actions at face value because if someone acts like a cunt, they are a cunt and only they can change that. It's certainly not worth my time or effort trying to understand them.

It is important to work out what causes appalling behaviour to determine if changes can be made to prevent it happening in the future. That should not however detract from the individual responsibility.

"Actually I don't think it is important to explain or suggest reasons for that kind of behaviour. If someone acts like an asshole, then the reasons behind it aren't relevant if you are on the receiving end"
It may not feel important at that moment- but if you want to stop it and make sure the behaviour isn't perpetuated then we do need to understand it and find ways to teach our children not to do it.

Bertrand Can you give an explanation for the sort of nasty behaviour displayed by the playground mums who for some unknown reason freeze out someone who was part of their friendship group? There are endless posts on MN about it. This is usually stereotyped as 'bitchy' behaviour. What's your take on it?

"If a person is violent, then the reasons for that violence don't matter to their victim"

Absolutely but I think that proves as a counter example to your views on feminism. Because whilst 99% on MN will tell a victim of DV that it isn't her fault at all (and to get the hell out) it is usually feminists who make the observation that we live in a society that encourages hyper masculinity in the form of dominance, entitlement over women's bodies and violence in general.

It is 100% possible to dislike an individual or their actions (and want them to stop) whilst at the same time analysing the wider societal context that enables / encourages those actions. It's not the same as excusing their actions by a long shot.

I mean, you (to Abbey!) for example, must have developed a theory as to why women are more likely to exhibit those "bitchy" behaviours. Without excusing those behaviours at all why do you think women are more likely to be "bitchy"?

Bertrand presumably you accept that you are influenced by societal expectations as well - is it only feminists that see issues clearly or are they also being influenced by expectations?

What I'm trying to say (badly) is that surely if everything is attributed to societal expectations, that absolves people of responsibility for how they act. And surely that means that we are all drones, programmed to behave in certain ways, in which case why are the feminists immune?

The idea that people aren't responsible for their own actions or decisions truly terrifies me. It's like the plot of a dystopia novel.

And slightly off at a tangent, I saw a political thread recently which explained the difference between left and right along the lines of the left thinking that people are influenced by society and are concerned with it and the right thinking that everyone is responsible for themselves (paraphrasing badly here!). If this is the case is this a reason that often the feminist and left leaning mindsets are similar? Genuine question as I know there appear to be far more left wing feminists than right wing on here.

(ignore me if that isn't the place to post it but I'm genuinely curious and the FWR are way too much for me to dip my toes into)

Without excusing those behaviours at all why do you think women are more likely to be "bitchy"? Why are they?

Elementsofsurprise

I could have written most of your original post! Apart from the ASD part, though I have been asked a few times in my life whether I had it, through misreading social signals or being too blunt :)

I would definitely have said that after the age of 10, I felt that it was much easier for me to be around boys, that I could be myself, while most girls completely blanked me if I was myself. My only friends after that age at school were "geeky" girls, friends in the sense that I was comfortable enough with them, but they weren't friends who I'd miss desperately if they disappeared from my life.

I feel that very often when women (including on this thread) say "I get on better with men" they mean "I usually don't feel welcomed by women, even though I would love to be". I did make some amazing women friends - one(7 years older)who was a force of nature who embraced me in spite of my social reticence around women, and then a group of sisters from one amazing family, who were all extremely talented, intelligent and interesting, 3 of the older sisters each became my friends individually and as a group. After that it was all uphill, in that I met even more interesting and amazing women, and also made conscious effort to come out of my shell more around women (what I usually only felt comfortable doing around men). But then I followed my English husband from my country and moved to England at the age of 29 and left my established group of friends behind.

Here I felt alwats very welcomed on a superficial level, plenty of acquaintances, plenty of girls to have small talk with (which I find hard work and which makes me miserable if there's too much of it). I found that if I make an effort myself, I'm never blanked, women are always happy to chat, but to find a true friend is probably as difficult as to find a partner for life. The two friendships where we clicked were amazing, but one of them was an American girl who was only here for 18 months, and the other semi-local(Scottish expat to England) who also eventually moved to another country for a couple of years, and since she returned the dynamics of the relationship changed and I've barely seen her.

I haven't met anyone else who I clicked with as well, and I find having my male friends from my past life (communicating through email/chat mostly) is enough of male friendship, I also keep in touch as much as I can with my original girlfriends, but what i miss is having a group of proper female friends who I could trust completely and also have a laugh with. I think there are some groups willing to accept me if I made an effort, but they are not inspiring enough for me to bother. Though I do have two-three who are definitely more meaningful to me than acquaintances, one of them is from my country of origin, but then I don't have chemistry with them iykwim.

I think we need to create a club for women who want to have more women friends in their life but feel like it's an impossible dream maybe some of us are local to each other?

"Bertrand presumably you accept that you are influenced by societal expectations as well - is it only feminists that see issues clearly or are they also being influenced by expectations?"

Of course I am. I may see some things from a feminist perspective a little more clearly than some other people because I have thought and read and talked about it a lot over many years. But I have as many societal expectations on me as anyone else.

See my username I can read and write on MN only very sporadically, but I will get back here as soon as I can.

well presumably I have a sign on my head saying 'please be a bitch to me' - it's obviously my fault as women are victims of their conditioning.

I choose to believe that the reason I was raped was that that man was a rapist - he wanted to take the virginity of a 15 year old. That isn't the fault of society showing him he's entitled to do that - it's his fault for doing it.

"Bertrand Can you give an explanation for the sort of nasty behaviour displayed by the playground mums who for some unknown reason freeze out someone who was part of their friendship group? There are endless posts on MN about it. This is usually stereotyped as 'bitchy' behaviour. What's your take on it?"

I think that sometimes people who have very little control and power in their lives impose what power they have wherever they can.
I think that women are socialised to compete with each other generally rather than cooperate.
I think that groups-regardless of gender- sometimes develop a "persecution" agenda and individuals prove themselves to be part of the group by joining in.
I think that sometimes people are so terrified of losing friends that they regard any newcomer as a threat.
I think that boys friendship groups are built round a shared interest or activity and so don't become as emotionally intense as girl's friendship groups.
I think that sometimes people interpret not being immediately accepted into a friendship group or another person's social awkwardness or shyness as "freezing them out".
I think sometimes people call friendship groups "cliques"

I could go on..........And I will if you like!

"well presumably I have a sign on my head saying 'please be a bitch to me' - it's obviously my fault as women are victims of their conditioning."

If you are going to respond in that passive aggressive way then there really isn't any point my going to the effort of replying. I said absolutely nothing of the sort.

I think that sometimes people who have very little control and power in their lives impose what power they have wherever they can.
I think that women are socialised to compete with each other generally rather than cooperate

I have never experienced the school gate collection clique syndrome but what you have said is exactly the sort of infantilising excuses being made for bad behaviour which negate individual responsibility.

Yes of course.

I don't understand how this is even a question!!

Obviously it comes in varying degrees of obviousness though. You get the women who agree that if another woman has been drinking/invites a date into her home/wears a low cut top/smiles at someone on a bus then she is "partially responsible" for getting raped. That's a pretty obvious one.

Then you get the less obvious, but equally sexist (in my eyes anyway) women who will constantly insist on referring to a married woman by her husband's name, even when they know for a fact the woman in question kept their maiden name.

I think a lot of sexist people in the "less obvious but still massive twats" camp will like to refer to themselves as "traditional" or "just following tradition".

To answer the OP - no, I don't know any misogynistic women!

I know women who have issues, sometimes major issues, with things like perfectionism, performance parenting or food preparation, and women who say the wrong thing from time to time. I don't however know any women who hate women. I'm quite horrified by some of the posts on this thread!

"I have never experienced the school gate collection clique syndrome but what you have said is exactly the sort of infantilising excuses being made for bad behaviour which negate individual responsibility."

As I have said repeatedly- explaining and discussing is not excusing.

Lass I would spend my afternoon repeating that analysing the cause of negative behaviour is not the same as excusing it but it is starting to feel like Groundhog Day.

Bertrand Your opinions are of course valid but they are only opinions, as are mine. Interesting that you think you see things clearer than most. I don't necessarily think I do but it works for me.

I don't blame societal expectations on the fact that I slept with two of my friends' partners - I did it because they nearly caused me to lose everything and that's how I chose to deal with it. That isn't society's fault. It was my decision.

But then, by thinking that, I am probably not very bright as has been suggested upthread.

Bertrand I think it just feels that the reasons are irrelevant

I understand that reasons aren't the same as excuses but like I said upthread, it doesn't make the result of the behaviours any easier.

And given that several people have said that if a woman has a problem with a lot of women then it is her, not them, it wasn't unreasonable for me to make the comment about the sign on my head.

Bitchy cliques are the fault of either (a) the clique or (b) the person who is frozen out, are they not? To explain it away as societal is to basically give a free pass for people. I can't get this across to you (I am not used to any level of feminist intellectual debate) but to explain away behaviour as societal expectations then condemn the person for acting like that (reason but no excuse) just seems contradictory.

Unless you mean that by establishing the reason for behaviour, we are in a better position to change it? How do we do that? Most people are happy as they are and don't want to change. So that feels like banging your head against a wall.

"Interesting that you think you see things clearer than most"

I didn't say that either.