Do you know any misogynistic women?

[ovaryhill]

I've been reading a bit about this and wondered how common it is.
Has anyone had any experience of this?
I know at least one woman who behaves as if she hates other women and is very derogatory about women in general, agrees that wearing short skirts means you're asking for trouble kind of thing, sees other women as a threat and would prefer to work for men
Any opinions or experience?

There are men who admit they are totally more comfortable with women, it's just appears to be far more rare than women who say they get on better with blokes. And when I heard it from a man, it made me feel a little uneasy, like it's nothing to be proud of ( he wasn't, was just stating the fact that he felt a bit intimidated by other men and wasn't sure what to talk to them about).

Also my father was/is completely like that, really at ease in female company, and far more uncomfortable in the company of men only, he'd have to have alcohol involved to be even able to take part in the conversation. But my father, though not effeminate, is very quiet and soft spoken and also very un-materialistic and a dreamer. I think he could have made some male friends if he found a kindred spirit, but he didn't. His one close male friend was a school friend, who was eyewateringly stupid but always looked up to my dad like an over enthusiastic puppy, and all they did together was get drunk anyway. With women my father has all sorts of philosophical conversations, about the meaning of life, etc.

Anyway, women who say they prefer the company of men usually only say it to women or in their closest circle, I don't think they declare it to men at large normally, or that it in any way delights men and makes these women more attractive in their eyes, probably the opposite.

I do think that most women who say they find men easier say it not because they hate other women, but because they feel intimidated by them and are not sure how to fit in.

(And the solution usually is to overcome own shyness, show initiative, put on a bright face and not take rejection or lukewarmness personally; a bit like dating)

Hmmmm. I wouldn't say I'm shy or lacking in initiative. I don't usually feel intimidated by people (I wouldn't have gotten where I am if I did!) I just dislike gossiping and talking about people behind their backs which is what most of the women in the playground seem to do.* I don't judge people by their sex automatically and decide whether or not I want to be friends with them. It's just when I stand back and look at my group of friends, they are mostly male.

*disclaimer: I know this isn't what all women do and I know some men do this too

Bumble, I should have added the solution for those who said they would love to have more female friends.

Was thinking long and hard and realised that I never came across mums in the playground/school gates etc gossiping about people behind their backs, mostly conversation is very impersonal, about school stuff, birthday parties, potty training, etc - nothing exciting normally. :)

As an example when mums from our school took part in meetups to get to know other reception year mums(and dads), conversation typically would be about what you do for a living and do you enjoy it, how did you end up in the area, do you have other kids, how did you meet your husband :) and so on. There would be more time to talk properly, so you didn't have to do small talk much or at all.

I have witnessed or taken part in discussing people behind their backs but not maliciously and within a circle of very close friends( both genders) and usually when something quite extraordinary was going on, which was impossible not to mention.

It's great to see this discussion taking place outside of the feminist section.

I think it has (inevitably) become a feminist debate. One of the reasons I originally bowed out of the thread was that I was very upset by what was said. I was obviously missing something because, as Bertrand said I don't know how many times people have addressed this point. and nobody else seemed to have a problem understanding it.

I would like to have hung around to get that clarification but I am uncomfortable trying to debate feminism with FWR regulars - I'm not as well practiced so it is very intimidating (the idea of the debate, not the FWR regulars ).

However I wasn't going to risk looking even more stupid by asking for clarification.

So I guess that's a case in point - I find women, particularly feminists, incredibly intimidating even though I would like to be able to ask questions and so that I gain some sort of understanding of where they are coming from. The fact I feel unable to do this means that I'm not going to change my views.

Last sentence should say 'I'm not going to be able to have the opportunity to change my views'.

I get your point Abbey (I think - I may have missed it entirely) but I think it was to do with analysis of why people behave badly, how much of that is due to societal pressure and the extent to which individuals should behave better by recognising and resisting societal pressure.

The problem I have with feminism as it seems to be practised on FWR that the analysis goes well into the territory of not just explaining behaviour by women as a class but excusing it.

For example the reasons given for why there are school-gate cliques. My take on that is fine, these are grown up women and mothers - grow up and behave decently. Realise that if you are being undermined by your husband or in laws or boss being spiteful to another mum achieves nothing.

Societal pressures apply to men as a class but an individual man behaving badly will always (should always) be held accountable.

I post on FWR but other than on subjects such as prostitution I'm usually well out of step with the concensus.

Lass Yes I was upset that it appeared to me from the discussions that a rapist was doing that due to societal expectation about being entitled to do it whereas I think he did it because he's a cunt and he is the only one to blame. I know there's a difference between reason and excuse but the actions don't hurt any the less because there's a reason, nor are you likely to be able to prevent individuals from behaving in an unacceptable way by understanding why they do it.

So when I have been treated badly by other women, I blame them as I believe that they are responsible for their actions. I think what people are saying is that society's influence may cause them to act like that (or at least go a long way to explaining why they do it).

And if we accept that society enables or encourages people to act in a certain way, that feels to me like they are absolved of responsibility. I'm sure I'm as restricted by societal expectations and pressures as anyone else but if I act like a cunt to someone, that is my fault, the wider reasons behind that behaviour don't matter to the person on the receiving end. I am also capable of not acting like one. The choice I make is mine, and the consequences for that behaviour have to be accepted.

Therefore there seems little point in using societal pressure as a reason for it as that doesn't achieve anything. Even if the cause is the patriarchal society, that's not going to magically disappear.

This may make no sense whatsoever because it's nearly 5.00 am and I have been awake all night

Okay am going to try again...

If I have understood previous points:

1 People believe that societal pressure is responsible for all behaviours

2 Societal pressure is a reason but not an excuse

And my points are:

1 The reason for the behaviour is irrelevant as the effects of it are still the same

2 Individuals should take 100% responsibility for their own behaviour and accept that if they behave badly, they need to take the consequences.

I get it. I'm on holiday and currently turning night into day but going to bed now.

This thread has been really interesting reading. I've not really got a huge amount to sat that hasn't been said before.

I've found it particularly interesting because all, bar two, of my friends are male. Not through a choice or intention, it's just worked out that way. The sports that I like the most (football and Bike racing) have a particularly male fan base where I live - the supporters bus to the football is all men and the bike group only has a couple of women, none of whom I know very well (or seem interested in getting to know me - in fact one is super hostile to me and another woman despite not knowing us).

My job was a very female orientated environment in schools, but I ended up in a weird position. I was learning support so I wasn't based in one school. I wasn't in each school long enough to be part of school staff, but I wasn't at my kids' school gate to make Mum friends either. I also spent some time working in my twins' school so to the parents I did meet there I was viewed as school staff.

I do have some good online acquaintances that are other women, but we all live too far apart to be a proper friendship group really. We met up on a race weekend early this year and it was great, but mostly because we all have similar interests rather than because they were also female, if that makes sense.

I have to admit I've had to train myself out of flinching at the word feminist, but that's because the only loud shouting feminist I met growing up was my great-aunt. However, I realised when I became an adult she wasn't actually a feminist. She was a man-hating bully who used it as an excuse.

I don't know if my friendship group dynamic might change with DC5 as I will be at the school gate this time.

I forgot to answer the original question - which is yes. My sister. She has taken our great-aunt's school of thought.

She believes there are jobs women just can't do.
She thinks any single mother is either a slut (her word) or did something to make the man leave.
She thinks domestic violence is just something that happens.
She thinks men should make the important decisions.
She believes that a woman should have her husband's dinner ready every evening. Even if they both work.

Some of the points about appearance have been interesting. I recognise there are cultural ideas of what is attractive, what is 'usual' in terms of forming relationships, having children etc.

I don't shave my legs/pits, don't wear makeup, don't own a skirt, have to be practically frogmarched to a hairdresser and, other than for work, only wears jeans and t-shirts.

And societal 'norms' like having partners and/or children - most people seem to want one or both at some point but I have never wanted a long term partner or children.

And there are many many people who can say the same.

I feel far more judged by women for not 'following the rules'. It is other women that have told me I will change my mind when I meet the right person and I will want kids when my bio clock starts ticking - they struggle to accept that someone may not want the same as they do. Whereas I have never met a man who has tried to imply that I don't know my own mind.

So is this kind of cultural pressure the same as the societal pressure discussed upthread? I
understand cultural expectations to be defined by where you live, your religion, your parents' background, etc etc.

I guess I'm trying to ascertain what is subconscious and what is conscious, assuming that you recognise societal pressure as a huge influence.

And if lots of people are able to ignore that pressure, why can't they recognise and reject societal pressure to be hostile to other women, for example.

I feel far more judged by women for not 'following the rules'.

Me too. But I think that is because women are more invested in the "rules" because it affects them more and the consequences are greater if they don't follow them.

Why on earth? You are more than holding your own- and I suspect you're in the majority. That is actually one of the nicest things someone has ever said to me on MN
I feel I've sorted a lot out in my head here. Things that have bothered me about my relationships with women have been articulated so well by Abbey. I feel that I'm differently brained to some women. It's not that I don't like them, it's that I don't understand them. I don't understand the friendship rules.

But what consequences are there, except for being judged by other women people? Surely ripping into other people because you are so invested in clinging onto the "rules" is fairly pointless?

I'm happy to be told if I'm missing something!

derxa That's exactly how I feel (and thank you for your kind comment!)

I find I can only relate to other women if the friendship is on a more typically male level - based on banter (yes I know that winds people up on MN) and general piss taking etc. And that isn't something I come across that often.

"But what consequences are there, except for being judged by other women people?"

Abbey, could I give an example from my past to clarify what I mean? I used to know an awful woman who used to critique my looks every time we met. She would tell me to lose weight (I wasn't obese, just plump!) and that I should pay more attention to what I wore if I ever hoped to get a man because in her own words men were "pigs" and would only ever go for attractive women. They were walking dicks basically and if I wanted one I needed to make myself sexy! It would have been comical if it weren't so hurtful; one of my enduring memories of her is her grabbing my boobs and trying to put them in a pink frilly bra whilst yelling "you need to be more sexeeeee'!"

She was constantly "bitching" about other women, finding fault with their looks, style, body shape etc and was so insecure about her boyfriend, spending hours on her looks before they would go out.

Now I dumped her friend arse a long while ago because it become too much but in a way I always felt sorry for her (not least because she'd suffered abuse - related I'm not sure) and as a feminist can totally analyse why she acted the way she did. She was operating in what she saw as a patriarchal world (although she wouldn't have used that word), where all women are in desperate competition with each other to gain the approval of the men around her. The consequences of her not doing so were being alone and being thought of as ugly (in her eyes). Now I don't know whether her boyfriend was as shallow as she thought all men to be and if he would have dumped her if he saw her in sweatpants and no makeup because she never let him but the idea that non attractive non skinny women don't get love didn't just pop into her head. It is one that is perpetuated constantly by the media from fat shaming fat sitcom characters to the abuse that women like Mary Beard get to the simple lack of older women on our screens (happily this is changing). Those themes are prevalent in our culture and women are most tied up in it because it affects them the most.

And I don't mean to sound too evangelical about feminism but that is what is so beautiful about it: it sees men as more than walking dicks just following a skirt in the same way it sees women as more than just sex objects.

Sorry for such long post Abbey!

Theydont I had one of those friends too! That's what I meant about the only consequences I could see was that other women would judge.

I caught my 'friend' slating me for being overweight etc - she had spent the previous few months coming round and phoning me at all times of the day or night because her DH had left her (ironically partly because she was shallow!)

I wonder about the mentality of people who equate people's feminist credentials with the amount of effort they make over their appearance - I make no effort and yet I'm a shit feminist!

Weirdly, the relationship I have with my female friends generally involves a high level of piss taking and that includes things like 'nice red top, it matches your eyes'. But we wouldn't say anything that was actually true or hurtful iyswim - for example they wouldn't call me fat.

(I may be making no sense because I have been up all night but I'm finding this discussion very interesting )

I once had a female boss who said it was the 'duty' of women to work full time AND have as many babies as they could. And take minimal mat leave (she took none). She is in all other ways a wonderful person but judged all women by her own particular views. I did have a conversation with her along the lines of 'we were emancipated from bloke rule so we had choice, not just another set of rules imposed by (ball breaking) women'. Not sure she saw the flaws. But she wrote off the majority of women who refused the attempt to 'have it all'. I think she was surprised when I took full mat leave for both my girls, went part time and eventually gave up work while still maintaining my feminist credentials. Vive la difference.

Just whizzing out and DS nagging me to get off MN but of course you sense and I know what you mean about the banter. It's refreshing to not take oneself so seriously

And I don't mean to sound too evangelical about feminism but that is what is so beautiful about it: it sees men as more than walking dicks just following a skirt

Some versions of it might not, not sure if that is a universal application - Dawkins, Bindel and the like.

Dworkin not Dawkins

derxa you have been brilliant too on another long thread we were both on recently.

'Societal pressures apply to men as a class but an individual man behaving badly will always (should always) be held accountable.'

What world do you live in? Because I live in a world where over 80,000 women are raped in the UK every year and for the vast majority of those cases the man responsible is never held accountable. Up until recently many rape victims would be entirely dismissed by the police, and if the rape victim was married to her rapist then pre-1990 no crime was considered to have happened.

That's before you start to consider the many millions of 'minor' sexual assaults men engage in every single day, that every woman has experienced at some point in her life. The assaults that are dismissed, ignored, laughed at.

The idea that men are held to account for their behaviour is laughable.