Do you know any misogynistic women?

[ovaryhill]

I've been reading a bit about this and wondered how common it is.
Has anyone had any experience of this?
I know at least one woman who behaves as if she hates other women and is very derogatory about women in general, agrees that wearing short skirts means you're asking for trouble kind of thing, sees other women as a threat and would prefer to work for men
Any opinions or experience?

It would be interesting to know whether "girly" or "gay" is considered the worse insult........

My ex MIL is an incredible mysogynist

The physical appearence of men isn't policed in the same way as women but it's starting to creep in in some areas.

I work quite often with young men who feel a huge amount of pressure to have the kind of 'Geordie shore' look - huge biceps and pecs and tanned. They spend most of their time lifting in the gym and a lot use steroids.

It's nowhere near as bad as the pressure on women on a society level but it seems to be creeping in for a lot of young men.

I have heard women take pride in their friendships with men, as they run down women at the same time, but I have NEVER heard men do the same about their female friends. Somehow I doubt these 'wonderful' men that women rave about think the way about them that these women seem to think they do.

Lumpy, personally, I think it's blinkered to suggest that 'society' only wants women to look a particular way and that men do nothing to change their appearance to fit it with what is deemed as 'attractive'. Each to their own though.

Bert, just to remind you, you said there is ' no societal pressure' for men to change their appearance. I, and others, disagree with you. That is not the same as saying 'men's physical appearance is as policed and proscribed by society and the media'.

U2, I agree that it's getting worse. Perhaps we should be discussing why 'society' has expectations of either sex. Why should any teenager feel pressured to look or act a certain way?

I think there are 'societal expectations' and pressures on men as well. They may be different compared to women's but I don't think they get off scot-free at all.

I would say that the particular physical expectations aren't as damaging for men. High heels being a case in point. Plus it's not piled on as much because men get to see lots of examples of ordinary to minging men on the TV doing stuff. Sometimes even the women who are supposed to be ugly in a show are actually pretty.

Anyhow back to the OP, the phrase "you're such a girl!" is used as a (gentle) insult by some in my family for both boys and girls. It's just wrong IMO and it's no wonder that girls grow up craving male friends to show that they are "one of the boys".

Nobody said there was no pressure bumbley, just that the overwhelming pressure is on women. So, it's okay to focus on the women as it is mainly a problem for women. Obviously some men also feel that pressure too but I'm largely concerned with the pressure on women as it a much, much bigger problem than it is for men.

Basic fire fighting isn't it, do you tackle the huge roaring fire that is burning the house down or do you focus on the little fire in the corner. As a feminist I want us to tackle the big fire as it's the bigger problem.

"As a feminist I want us to tackle the big fire as it's the bigger problem."

Oh Lumpy, haven't you learned by now that as a feminist you're really supposed to be putting everyone else's fire out first before you tackle your own?

Theydontknow, I see a lot of young men altering their diets and working out to get the 'perfect' body. That can be pretty damaging if they aren't doing it properly (Which many of them aren't!)

Lumpy, Bert did: "Of course some men also modify their appearance. There is no societal expectation on them so to do."

I think there are societal pressures on men. They may be different to those on women but I don't think that means they aren't a problem. You are, of course, allowed to be largely concerned with the pressure on women. Personally, I would rather see less pressure on young people in general - male and female. I don't want to minimise the pressures faced by young men. Particularly when they seem to be getting worse.

Well obviously no pressure for either would be nice. I feel as if we have derailed the thread somewhat though

"As a feminist I want us to tackle the big fire as it's the bigger problem"

That's fine. So long as you realise that issues affecting men are much more important and it's up to us to sort them out first in true"have the men had enough style.

Bertrand and They, alas I forgot myself there for moment...

Very interesting thread. I have a good friend who is quite a vocal feminist, however she is often very judgmental of other women (celebrity women mostly) who she thinks "let the side down" by posing in their underwear/posting selfies/having plastic surgery/wearing clothes she doesn't approve of.

This bothers me on two levels:
As a feminist I don't think we stand any chance of challenging patriarchal badness if we snipe and criticise each other for fairly trivial reasons.
Also, fundamentally I want a world in which women CAN take their clothes off in magazines if they bloody well want to, without being judged shallow/slutty/brainless or whatever. JUST LIKE MEN CAN. That to me is equality.

Also, my mum is guilty of a certain sort of rape apologism. I remember her telling me about a friend of hers who went out in a miniskirt and had a man randomly put his hand up it. Her attitude was very much 'well what did she expect?? silly girl made such a fuss about it'. I remember being shocked even then at about the age of 15.

my ex boss. Founder and CEO of a successful business in a traditionally male dominated industry, now employing over 200 people. Claimed to support her women employees but never promoted them (all Heads of Department were male, bar HR - typically a female job anyway); women who did well in the business were in traditional, subservient roles; she hated women who challenged or criticised her in any way and found a reason to fire them or manage them out of the business.

Yeah Bert, that's exactly what people are saying

Yes, we've moved a bit off topic. My original point was in response to AnotherUserName's post about women having to do certain things to make their appearance 'acceptable' to men = misogynist. If we recognise that both sexes 'modify' their appearance to make themselves what is currently considered to be 'more attractive' then I don't think that behaviour can be defined as misogynistic.

Didn't RTFT before posting. But working backwards, think some people are confusing sexism with misogynism?

Or are they the same thing?

I think that expectations for men to look/dress/behave a certain way is all part of patriarchy; and misogyny is rooted in patriarchy. It's all interlinked and very problematic!!

"If we recognise that both sexes 'modify' their appearance to make themselves what is currently considered to be 'more attractive' then I don't think that behaviour can be defined as misogynistic."

It can if women are only acceptable in a walk of life -like TV- if they fit a very narrow range of attractiveness criteria. Which is what happens. The same does not apply to men. That is misogyny exemplified.

That's not what Another was describing and that's not what I was responding to.

Also Bert, I don't think your example would be described as misogyny - more 'sexist'. And Mergues, no, I don't think they're the same thing.

It's great to see this discussion taking place outside of the feminist section.

I know lots of women who I can't bring myself to call misogynists but who don't get a lot of Denison yet. - I think largely because they haven't come out the other side of years of social conditioning.

I also know a few who are blatantly misogynists but I never foster friendship with them.

My mum thinks women can be "asking for it" and other old school belief gems. But I'm working on her and she gets my points most of the time. So even at 70 enquiring minds can change and people can change.

It's great to see this discussion taking place outside of the feminist section.
I'm very nervous posting here at all.

but I have NEVER heard men do the same about their female friends.

I have. 3 are straight, 2 gay. At least 2 of them have more close female friends, whom they are not interested in sexually, than male friends. None of them socialise in male only groups.

Me too Lass. One particular male friend springs to mind. He's straight and has a gf but he has mostly female friends because he did a predominantly female degree and works in a predominantly female area. He raves about how great his female friends are all the time :)

"It's great to see this discussion taking place outside of the feminist section.
I'm very nervous posting here at all."

Why on earth? You are more than holding your own- and I suspect you're in the majority.