AIBU - or is my fellow student? What is 'normal' behaviour on an MA course?

[nonnomnom]

I've nearly finished a taught MA at a British university. There are many students from around the world and generally it tends to be the British students (including me) who put their hands up and volunteer answers to the course tutors during our weekly taught sessions (about 25-40 people in a room).

I'd assumed those who didn't contribute did so partly because of lack of confidence at speaking in a foreign language or in some cases I know (because they've admitted it!) that some Far Eastern students believe that student interaction is a bit pointless and they just want the teachers to tell them the 'right' answers.

But I was really shocked when I inadvertently stumbled across a bitching session by a couple of students on the course about those who participate actively in the course. I'd assumed that all native speakers would view interaction as positive and indeed, what we were there for! But here this was an American and Brit, really laying into those who put their hand up too much, saying that others want to speak too but think more slowly so they (the quick ones) should wait and give them a chance to speak. She was really vehement and I was a bit horrified to think that fellow students were thinking I was really rude because I hadn't 'waited' for them (obviously I had no way of knowing if they had great ideas brewing, were just shy, hadn't done the reading etc).

So what is normal/expected on an MA course? Were I and my 'chatty' fellow students being unspeakably insensitive and spotlight-hogging? Or was I being reasonable, and actually, active interaction and participation is what MA tutors wish to see and students ought to expect to do?

Advice please - bit late for me as I've nearly finished my course now and have been blithely chatty to date. But hoping all my fellow students haven't hated me as a result...

No, I have rarely come across hand-raising with adult students either Gobbolino. Assume it's do with the size of the group.

No, I haven't discussed this with any of the tutors - it only came out after the last session and anyway I would feel a bit weird raising it as it was someone else's problem not mine!

As a previous poster said, class discussion and class participation are important components of US education across all levels. A corollary to that is an etiquette of sharing so that everyone gets a chance to participate. It has been my experience in a variety of academic and professional settings in the US that it's usually not the amount of talking that others in the group object to but the quality of what is being said. In other words, it's the boring, self-important blowhards who draw the complaints, the sort of speaker who prompted Compos's supervisor's "well whoppee fucking do."

Or you could post links to the vast amounts of research, which I'm hoping you weren't making up.

Really?!

What possible reason would maid have for falsifying readily-available research, which any capable undergraduate student could find?

I am perfectly prepared to believe you are who you say you are, but you seem almost to want people to start doubting so you can play the martyr - else why suggest anyone is falsifying anything, and why start googling random posters? It does strike me as really quite odd you'd bother to do that - still more odd that you must've been googling for quite some time before you hit on anyone remotely identifiable to nit-pick at.

The main time I have come across hand-raising is outside of unis, and in conference rooms large enough for someone to be running round with a microphone.

OP, what is your awareness of unconscious/implicit bias? Few of us are as egalitarian as we claim to be or aim to be.

I've come across hand-raising. I had seminars of 30 students and they sometimes did, usually out of habit/if they were a bit shy. It wasn't ideal but the whole situation wasn't ideal.

I can see it being useful for really big groups TBH.

I do think it tends to shut down nervous people, as sometimes people who are a bit shy and/or conscious of the group dynamic will tend to defer to a raised hand by not raising their own.

I do think it tends to shut down nervous people, as sometimes people who are a bit shy and/or conscious of the group dynamic will tend to defer to a raised hand by not raising their own.

No, I think I'd find it easier to raise my hand and be given permission to speak, rather than having to butt in, and hope I've got the break in the discussion right, which I probably haven't, so I end up talking over someone... (Not a problem these days, but I wasn't as good at speaking up in my 20s, mostly through nerves and lack of assertiveness.)

But the thing is that we're not all the same anyway, and so that has to be taken into account when managing a group. And I do agree it makes sense for large groups, when not everyone is likely to get a chance to speak anyway, just because of time.

nonnomnom I tutor at a university and deal with a large number of students, some of whom do not have English as a first language. I teach creative writing which can be doubly difficult for some foreign students. And of course there are quiet students and those who find it easier to talk in class.

I think I'm a good tutor and have encouraged an environment where I get to know my students and can tell from facial expressions if a student wants to say something but is shy of speaking up. I also make sure that I'm around if a student wants to ask something after class or needs something explained. Part of managing a class means gently controlling it so if one or two students are taking over, I might ask a shyer student what they think and then praise their comment. It's a delicate balance.

So what I'm saying is it's the tutor's job to make the workshop inclusive and not yours. You shouldn't have to tiptoe across another student's ego either. The students bitching about you are being spiteful and immature.

Gingermum, that's exactly the kind of reply the original post encourages. OP set up a faux-naive question with an apparently obvious answer: basically, AIBU to participate? The tone is determinedly cautious, tentative, uncertain: 'a bit horrified', 'inadvertently stumbled', 'I was really shocked', 'advice please', 'hoping all my fellow students haven't hated me'. The complaining students aren't having a conversation; it's a 'bitching session'. We're all set up to sympathise with the OP and say, hey, of course it's not your responsibility to manage the class dynamics. Don't worry about it at all.

In the eight pages (!) since then, the OP has posted more than I've ever seen an OP post, and has attempted to shut down any contrary opinions by a) patronising, b) insulting, c) creating what appear to be fantasies about their own level of teaching experience, refusing to clarify further because it might 'out' her; Googling posters and claiming she's senior to them; pretending the thread is actually a professional discussion, and even accusing people of falsifying research.

It's one of the best real-life examples of 'show, don't tell' I've ever read. It's like seeing someone repeatedly punch the wall while they explain they do NOT have a bad temper, they DON'T, how dare you suggest that?

I've only just read this thread and am thoroughly entertained. More more!

You can't win on Mumsnet, can you? If you post and don't return, people say you're a troll and if you debate, they say you're uppity and start questioning your personality, skills and level of professional experience .

I found the discussion of what participation is for and what's appropriate, interesting. I was most probably considered annoying on my MA course for the same reasons the OP is, but by the time of my teacher training, had got much wiser that some educational people don't want to hear contributions from certain people (ones like me) and didn't contribute verbally at all. Result!

This and several other reasons are why I am glad my masters is distance learning with asynchronous on line tutorials.

Only dipping in & out of this thread, but I'm finding other academics' points about the problems of students raising their hands to be very heartening. I ask my students not to raise their hands as they need to learn:
a) from each other in discussion
b) that I am not the important person in the room
c) to listen to each other
d) to engage with each other.

I agree with most of what Jeanne has written on this thread.

And a group of 40 students with a lecture from the tutor, and a brief question & answer session where the tutor asks the questions is NOT a seminar

Only dipping in & out of this thread, but I'm finding other academics' points about the problems of students raising their hands to be very heartening.

I found it interesting to see how room layout affected this behaviour. I've taught mostly adults not MA seminars, but the kind of class where there's lots of discussion and found that there was no hand-raising when we all sat in a circle, or around a table, but if we reverted to lines of desks, everyone started instinctively raising their hands, without ever being asked. Including fifty-something senior executives who hadn't been in school for decades.

People also called me by my first name when we were at the round table, but switched to 'teacher' or 'miss [name]' when I stood at the board. It was really marked.

Lady, I've not experienced the name thing, but it seems like people raise their hands when they can't see one another easily in the lines of desks, so rely on the 'chair' at the front of the room to do the organization for them.

i don't like that format particularly, but do think it works better than trying to do a circle where there are actually too many people involved. That makes everyone cross and disengaged.

I far prefer circles!

Jeanne - just used normal google to google you and discovered that, quelle surprise, you have vastly less experience than I do!

Who would have think it, eh?

I'll just repost this with no comment. But I think that the scraping noise that accompanies this post is the OP's fingernails losing their grip on the last vestiges of dignity she had in this discussion...

MaidOfStars I find that when circles go well, they go really well, and when they go badly it's either like the world's most awkward dinner party everyone studiously examining their fingernails or you start looking for a conch shell.

Is anyone else imagining being in a class with the OP? I'm surprised her fellow students were so restrained in their complaint of her. What an awful person she's coming across as.

YY, agree that room layout makes a huge difference. The worst room I've been in was a maths lecture theatre used for English seminars - we had to sit at desks in straight rows one behind the other (no time to rearrange the room) and getting any conversation going was a nightmare.

EBear - yes, I can see raising hands is useful in that context, but I wonder how long it continues to work for? Eg., if you begin by feeling you are secure to raise your hand, what happens if other people listen to your point, then completely ignore it? Do you stop raising your hand because no one is engaging? It's quite personal, but my worry is that when there's a 'raise your hand' system, people who might otherwise feel they ought to help include a quieter person's point by responding to it don't feel the need to do that, so quieter people end up excluded in a different way - their points do literally get made, but they never get integrated.

What are you doing your Masters in OP? "How to mishandle a discussion and alienate people"?

You should really apologise to Jeanne and Lady for being so rude. I can't believe you actually googled someone to tell them that you have more experience than them!

You do know that when you post in AIBU there is every possibility that people will answer that YABU.

Bizarre thread

I'll just repost this with no comment. But I think that the scraping noise that accompanies this post is the OP's fingernails losing their grip on the last vestiges of dignity she had in this discussion..

Or the sound of a the bottom of a very deep barrel being scraped for all it is worth. One of the most desperate attempts at oneupwomanship I've ever seen.

Oh but rest assured I'm sure you have experience that outranks mine (what with me being but an 'umble newly minted and job seeking academic and all) but if Jeanne had been an emeritus professor at Yale who'd spent a lifetime researching seminar dynamics, I suspect you'd be claiming to be vastly more experienced than her. With you having a BA in hand and a part completed Masters you must be quite the authority.

So, op if you are so much more experienced than us and have extensive teaching experience with MA students, did you need something so straight forward clarifying? If you've already taught on an MA course before seeking to gain your own surely you should have known the situation laid out in your first post was not the norm?

I always rearrange a room - or ask my students to do it -- if we're not arranged in a circle. Hate rows with a passion, unless it's a lecture. But you need to see each for a discussion.

Space has a semiotics.

Jeanne - just used normal google to google you and discovered that, quelle surprise, you have vastly less experience than I do!

Crikey, you cyberstalked an anonymous poster on the internet?

You could try to google me. You won't find my RL persona, but I can assure you I am vastly more experienced than you, and Jeanne but she speaks sense ... So she is endorsed by a senior professor.

I think I've won the internet, haven't I?

I'd say so multi

I'm vastly more experienced than everyone on earth. I win.