AIBU - or is my fellow student? What is 'normal' behaviour on an MA course?

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I've nearly finished a taught MA at a British university. There are many students from around the world and generally it tends to be the British students (including me) who put their hands up and volunteer answers to the course tutors during our weekly taught sessions (about 25-40 people in a room).

I'd assumed those who didn't contribute did so partly because of lack of confidence at speaking in a foreign language or in some cases I know (because they've admitted it!) that some Far Eastern students believe that student interaction is a bit pointless and they just want the teachers to tell them the 'right' answers.

But I was really shocked when I inadvertently stumbled across a bitching session by a couple of students on the course about those who participate actively in the course. I'd assumed that all native speakers would view interaction as positive and indeed, what we were there for! But here this was an American and Brit, really laying into those who put their hand up too much, saying that others want to speak too but think more slowly so they (the quick ones) should wait and give them a chance to speak. She was really vehement and I was a bit horrified to think that fellow students were thinking I was really rude because I hadn't 'waited' for them (obviously I had no way of knowing if they had great ideas brewing, were just shy, hadn't done the reading etc).

So what is normal/expected on an MA course? Were I and my 'chatty' fellow students being unspeakably insensitive and spotlight-hogging? Or was I being reasonable, and actually, active interaction and participation is what MA tutors wish to see and students ought to expect to do?

Advice please - bit late for me as I've nearly finished my course now and have been blithely chatty to date. But hoping all my fellow students haven't hated me as a result...

OP I run an MA programme and frankly, when I encounter students who don't participate, I think privately "what the hell are you doing here?"

In every group you get randomers. Sounds like your US student is one.

That said, two things-

Depending on your subject, 25+ people in a room is v v big for an MA cohort. My undergrad groups are capped at 20 and my PG ones at 10-12 absolute max. It is legitimately difficult to get everyone involved in such a large group.

But your tutor should be encouraging this. I tend to do things like make everyone do a short pres to the group once a term or assign particular tasks to people or put everyone in groups at various points. There are lots of ways to get more people talking.

So long as you're not sticking up your hand first every time and shouting 'I know the answer' like a badly trained six year old you're probably fine

The same vehement American student was bitching about another (really helpful IMHO) student who posts loads on our course Facebook group, eg links to books for the course, helpful suggestions etc. I thought this was really kind of her, but no, the American was saying 'Who the hell does she think she is?'

...someone who wants the whole cohort to do as well as possible, and is happy to share good resources she has found? As baffled as you are.

I can only think the American student feels out of his or her depth, a bit inadequate, and is bitching from that.

RevoltingPeasant - agree the numbers this year are a bit unmanageable. It was about 25 ish last year and that was big but with so many Asian students who didn't want to contribute, it was doable. This year we have over 40 students and it is too many - we barely all fit in the room!

MultishirkingAgain -we do have to put our hands up mainly due to numbers. With 40+ people in the room, it would be chaos otherwise. Plus there's a lot of material to get through in the time.

I went to uni as a mature aged student and found the sitting back and twiddling your fingers style of some students drove me crazy. "Does anyone have an opinion on xxxxx?" ...crickets... so I'd say something (or one of the other mature aged students did) only to have rolled eyes from the younger participants.

I really think it is a maturity thing. Students straight out of school are more used to it not being seen as 'cool' to speak up, whereas most mature aged students have come from workplaces themselves, or career changers that desperately want to be doing that job.

There was also a pretty big difference in the outcomes for many of the students. Those of use that were active participants left with the higher grades, references from all our lecturers and job offers pretty quickly. Many of the non participants had average grades, no references 'Mary who?' and many took a lot longer to find a job, if they did at all.

sleeponeday you might be right with your guess. When I worked in a group with the American student, she did seem slow to grasp stuff and frequently got the wrong end of the stick. But she can't expect the whole class to be dumbed down to suit her, surely...

Or maybe she thinks she can...

Hmm.

Thanks MidniteScribbler - yes, maybe an age thing. Certainly true that the huge commitment you make as a mature student means you don't want to waste any opportunity for learning. And that can impact on outcomes.

You sound like the kind of student I'd be delighted to have in my seminar!

Hmm. I don't know really. I've taught in a US university (where learning is discussion-based, so I don't think there's a cultural disconnect in that regard), and managing the class dynamic could be problematic. I ended up approaching quiet students individually and encouraging them to contribute, or warning them that I'd call on them.

I do think it's poor etiquette to answer every question, actually. Once you've had your chance to speak, I think that it is more polite to leave a pause after the next question. If no one bites, then go for it. But it is better to give a balance. This is an etiquette that is observed at academic conferences and seminars too (and in those contexts people will definitely not hold back from bitching about limelight-hoggers!) To some extent it is up to the tutor to manage the situation, but it can be difficult for a tutor as you can't just tell people to shut up, especially in front of the class.

So YANBU to answer questions, but YABU to answer a sizeable proportion of the questions, without at least looking round the room and seeing if others might be thinking about contributing.

Not unreasonable at all. As others have said, it's the tutors job to make sure that others participate. However, I do remember a couple of people in my MA cohort who used to participate so much that sometimes you got the impression that they were not taking in at what others have said because they are so concerned with what they will say and how they will appear. I resented them, not because they stopped me from participating (I always found a way) but because they went of topic and often their contributions were rubbish.

Not saying that this is the case here, but those annoying overzealous participants do exist.

I agree with theycallmemello

theycall - interesting - so that accords more with the American student's viewpoint but less with others on this thread.

I think from my perspective I'm not shouting out, just putting my hand up and sometimes there'll be a bunch of us doing that and the tutor might pick one of us but sometimes I or someone else might be the only one. It does tend to be the same few answering but that's because the Asian and other non-native speakers often clearly don't want to speak. When I worked in a group with others and someone had to report the group's ideas to the class, I always tried to encourage someone usually quieter to do it - I was aware I speak enough. But you can't (or shouldn't) force shy people to speak who aren't ready for it or really hate the idea, surely?

This is a really helpful thread to read, thank you OP for starting it :) I finished my UG degree in June and was the only 'usual age' (that is, straight out of school into uni) student to actively participate in class discussions, the rest was all the mature students - and this is a theatre degree, so none of us were particularly shy or not confident. I was also the only 'usual age' student to get a first, along with the mature students who participated, so I know at UG participating does have a good impact on your grades. I was wondering whether it's the same at MA level as I've just been accepted onto a MA for September. Glad to hear that participating is encouraged; I can't learn through just sitting there and being talked at for hours on end with no discussion!

And as for "YABU to answer a sizeable proportion of the questions, without at least looking round the room and seeing if others might be thinking about contributing." - how do you know if they're thinking about contributing?

They don't show any signs of it or inclination to do it normally, seminars are very rushed with a lot to cram in so there isn't really any time to hang around and see if quieter people want to add stuff (what if they don't?). We do plenty of group work too so everyone's voice does get heard just some in smaller groups rather than to the whole class.

From my perspective, I'm not a mindreader and it's their responsibility (or possibly the tutor's) for them to get involved - not mine. I'm not shouting over them or anything!!

Ah well if you're putting your hand up and being picked I guess that is a different matter. Yes in that case I guess it is the tutor who should be pausing and choosing people. But I don't think this is a US perspective - I am English and did my BA and masters in England, I only went over to the US to do a phd (which is when I taught). And I don't think you can assume that shier and quieter students don't have anything to say. I can't think of an instance when it didn't yield good results when I approached a quiet student about a strategy to get them to speak in class. Often it was as simple as making eye contact after I asked a question. I also would be careful about assuming that the Asian students are less insightful, even if I agree that in my experience too they do have their eye on the prize in terms of attempting to second guess what the tutor wants. (Which is not always a bad strategy, I hate to say. It would be nice if academics always have great marks to essays which challenge their own pet theories in interesting ways but sadly isnt always what happens!). I'd also say that I noticed no correlation at all between quality of written work and volume of oral contribution.

When I say see if they're thinking of contributing, I just mean look around and leave a pause. In the same way you might in a normal conversation. Of course it's not a mind reading exercise, it's just remembering that a seminar is still a conversation. But if it's a hand raising thing then the tutor should probably be making more of an effort to encourage contributions from a wider pool.

@ jorahmormont - :) So glad this thread is not only helpful for me and well done on your first!

It's clearly not 100% agreement but useful to get feedback that generally it is OK to participate as long as you're not shouting over people!

I do wish that this is something that had been discussed a bit more openly on my MA; while we have done lots of discussion about expectations for academic writing and research, there's been nothing really about expectations for seminar behaviour. I wish the first session on my MA had included a brief intro to expectations of student roles in seminars and extent/nature of participation and 'participation etiquette'. Especially given that our course includes students from cultures with very different expectations.

I think maybe there is an expectation that these standards are shared, but as this thread and my experience has shared, this is not always the case...

theycall - I certainly don't think the quieter students or Asian students have nothing insightful to say, far from it. My MA subject is actually one where their experiences are often particularly relevant and in small groups or pairs, when prodded, they often came out with really interesting stuff. But some people just get nervous putting their views across to a room of 40 or so people, particularly if it's in a foreign language. I'm a native English speaker and reasonably confident (I'm prepared to give something a go and don't mind if I guess wrong) but know some others wouldn't feel comfortable answering unless they're 100% sure they know the right answer. Likewise, if asked if there are any questions, I don't mind asking the question that might make me look like an idiot, particularly if I know I'm not the only one who is confused about the point. I really hate when no-one asks a question about eg an assignment and then you come out and talk to each other and find out that no-one knows what they're supposed to be doing!!

I do think it can be cultural. I'm involved with teacher training, and we have a lot of Asian international students at the university. The biggest criticism from mentor teachers is that the Asian students sit back, don't speak up, and wait to be told what to do. This is quite opposite to Australian teachers who expect pre-service teachers to dive in and get involved. When we speak to the students, they always say that it is what is expected of them based on their experiences of their own schooling.

I'm part way through an MA as a mature student, on a course where I was the only mature student in some modules, and I have definitely been one of the more vocal ones. It was a small group, and I did speak to one or two of the others privately and ask if I was overdoing it, and they assured me not. I think that if you only speak when you have something relevant to say, keep the conversation academic rather than deviating into personal anecdote excessively, and listen to others when they speak rather than shouting over them, you're probably fine. Certainly one of the people who has done best on our course contributed among the least orally - she told me she was a bit intimidated by another course member (not me) who actually didn't do quite as well as her overall in the written work but was very extrovert and confident. But the lecturers mostly did a very good job of drawing out the less vocal members where they looked as if they had something to say, without allowing too many tumbleweed pauses. We didn't have the problem of international students to the same extent, though, and I think that does make a difference. These discussions flow partly on subtle non-verbal cues about who does or doesn't have something to contribute, and I imagine those are different within a different Anglophone culture, let alone another language.

Congratulations on (nearly) finishing the course, OP! I did an MA a few years ago with a similar cohort to the one you describe - a mix of home and international students, with the international students mostly from China, North America and South Korea. Some modules were really well taught, and the tutor would organise a lot of small-group activities - very interesting things to talk about with the 4/5/6 people on your table, followed by whole-class discussions. There was always something to 'produce' in the small discussions, e.g. a single powerpoint slide to share with the class, or a poster or something, which made sure we focussed and also gave far more people than just the usual suspects the confidence to talk in the whole-class discussion. Other modules weren't as well taught, mainly whole-class discussion with the occasional opportunity to talk to the person next to you. Those classes were much less lively, and I reckon only about half the class members ever piped up, sometimes less. I don't have a very long tolerance for silence, so although I always tried to leave a decent gap for someone else to respond to questions, I will admit that I did a lot of the talking, as did the other mature first-language-English students.

Which is a long way round to say that 1) the first responsibility is that of the lecturer who is being paid to make the class accessible to everyone and 2) that responsibility is shared with all the students. If the people bitching about you had a problem then they should either have made sure they had their say in class, or if you and a few others really were unfairly dominating the discussion, they should have spoken to the tutor about it during the course so that they could address the matter. Not bothering to contribute and then complaining at the end is simply childish and lazy.

Like others here, I teach similar sized groups at undergrad and Masters level.

It is MY job to make it clear at the start of each block that I expect EVERYONE to contribute to discussion and I'm not afraid to call on people if they think they can just hide at the back. This is done with smiles and some teasing, but with firmness.

It is MY job to make it clear that all discussion is valid, that any ideas are worthy of being shared in the open and supportive environment, that there is no such thing as a stupid question and if you're thinking it, someone else will be too!

It is MY job to appropriately manage the more vocal members of the group. I am quite happy to leave them with their hand/pen raised and will sometimes say that I am waiting for answers from others, or that they've had their turn. let's hear from someone else. Forcing small group work with assigned roles (chair, scribe, etc), or having a couple of minutes discussion with a partner are good ways to encourage shy (or lazy) people to speak and contribute.

It is MY job to identify and review the students who aren't participating, to talk to them about any specific issues and to develop methods to encourage them to speak up. Issues are sometimes cultural, sometimes laziness, sometimes fear of underperformance in front of the apparently brighter buttons. Regardless, I have to give feedback on their performance/participation, something they don't always expect, and it can very often provide the motivation required to open their mouths!

It is YOUR job to turn up, participate, learn and grow, perhaps help others learn and grow at the same time. Nothing more.

I'm probably guilty of viewing the tutors as equals rather than superiors as I'm about their age and have more professional experience than they do though obviously less academic knowledge

As long as you're not one of the bellends who thinks they know more than the tutor and who asks me to hurry up because "I know all this", then you might be OK.....

Thanks all. No, MaidofStars, our tutors are pretty good and I have huge respect for their knowledge - that's why I'm paying 6 grand to learn from them! That said, there were occasions last year when a lovely tutor who I get on very well with missed some crucial points in a particular seminar. I didn't say anything in the seminar (there wasn't time anyway) but asked about it on Moodle and he added a load of useful stuff on the topic on Moodle. It was a bit of an oversight in the area (my professional experience in the area is far more recent than his) and he could see it should have been included. Hopefully it has been this year. We still get on brilliantly so assume he's not offended and I certainly didn't phrase it rudely on Moodle - I just asked 'What about X?'

Useful learning thread - my taught sessions are now over but in a similar situation I'll definitely have my antenna more tuned to people who might want to contribute...but aren't, for whatever reason. And in tutoring myself, it would make me aware of the need to ensure that classroom etiquette was understood by all initially, rather than assumed.

I remember a similar thread in the summer (or perhaps earlier) from a mature student who found others moaning about the same thing on Facebook. The consensus was that there's always one, or a group, of these over-sharers in courses, and that they are irritating. The one on my course certainly irritated me, mostly because she was showing off and trying to impress the tutor rather than wanting to contribute to a discussion.

So to answer your question, this seems to be normal on university courses - some students, often mature ones, who are very keen to talk, and a majority of the rest of the class being silently irritated by it.