Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU - or is my fellow student? What is 'normal' behaviour on an MA course?

214 replies

nonnomnom · 20/12/2015 18:33

I've nearly finished a taught MA at a British university. There are many students from around the world and generally it tends to be the British students (including me) who put their hands up and volunteer answers to the course tutors during our weekly taught sessions (about 25-40 people in a room).

I'd assumed those who didn't contribute did so partly because of lack of confidence at speaking in a foreign language or in some cases I know (because they've admitted it!) that some Far Eastern students believe that student interaction is a bit pointless and they just want the teachers to tell them the 'right' answers.

But I was really shocked when I inadvertently stumbled across a bitching session by a couple of students on the course about those who participate actively in the course. I'd assumed that all native speakers would view interaction as positive and indeed, what we were there for! But here this was an American and Brit, really laying into those who put their hand up too much, saying that others want to speak too but think more slowly so they (the quick ones) should wait and give them a chance to speak. She was really vehement and I was a bit horrified to think that fellow students were thinking I was really rude because I hadn't 'waited' for them (obviously I had no way of knowing if they had great ideas brewing, were just shy, hadn't done the reading etc).

So what is normal/expected on an MA course? Were I and my 'chatty' fellow students being unspeakably insensitive and spotlight-hogging? Or was I being reasonable, and actually, active interaction and participation is what MA tutors wish to see and students ought to expect to do?

Advice please - bit late for me as I've nearly finished my course now and have been blithely chatty to date. But hoping all my fellow students haven't hated me as a result... Confused

OP posts:
Original poster
nonnomnom · 22/12/2015 20:21

LadyLikeCough - yes, how very dare I comment on my own thread!

I mean clearly that means I monopolise dialogue in an MA setting.

Er...

OP posts:
Original poster
nonnomnom · 22/12/2015 20:29

Also some rather dodgy attempts to pull rank here.

Yes, I have taught and will teach plenty of MA students. I'm still interested in others' views. I don't see those two facts as contradictory and have no idea why you do, LadylikeCough.

OP posts:
MaidOfStars · 22/12/2015 20:36

Also some rather dodgy attempts to pull rank here

On the thread, or in your class Wink

Your OP asks what MA tutors want to see. Why did you not mention that you'd taught Masters students? Seems an odd omission. In what context have you taught them? Academically? In the workplace?

Original poster
nonnomnom · 22/12/2015 20:45

I can't say that Maid, without revealing more of my professional life than I wish to.

I avoided mentioning it because I wanted to avoid people assuming I knew everything from the start. And because I wasn't really asking about the tutor's role but the student's role. It wasn't the tutor of the course I was on that was being critical about one of the students, in fact far from it, they seemed to adore the chatty student and regularly picked him to answer questions over other students; it was a (quiet) fellow student who was critical.

As a tutor, my students wouldn't say this kind of stuff to me about fellow students! They might conceivably comment on what Jolly called a 'gunner', but as I've said, they are the exception. I wouldn't expect my quieter students to comment on a fellow student who just participated more than they did.

TBH, I've found the most useful comments on this thread have come from fellow or ex-students, not from tutors. Their perspective doesn't hurt but as they're not actually students themselves their judgements on whether students who do this are Good or Bad are fine, but slightly off-topic.

OP posts:
MaidOfStars · 22/12/2015 20:48

Saying whether you teach academically or professionally/on the job is hardly going to out you!

You know that academics are ex-students, yes? Wink

Original poster
nonnomnom · 22/12/2015 20:50

You're right that I did ask what tutors see as the norm for participation, because the quiet student's perspective was so utterly at odds with my own experiences as both tutor and student. And so it has been helpful to see that there are some tutors who view participation more negatively than I do.

Though as I've stated, don't expect me to agree!

OP posts:
JeanneDeMontbaston · 22/12/2015 20:51
Grin

Oh, come on, you can't have it both ways! Either you're pulling rank by telling people like me we only disagree with you because we're untrained idiots working at crappy, low-rate universities (and btw, I am pretty certain it takes a damn sight more skill to teach at a lower-ranked university than a higher ranked one ...). Or you're some poor, meek thing being horribly intimidated by people who, er, replied to your thread and explained where they got their experience of HE teaching.

If you really don't expect your quieter students to comment on the others, then you probably have a rather odd picture of what being a student is all about. Students talk to, and about, each other all the time. Why on earth shouldn't they? Your job is to get the most you can out of the MA. You won't do that by putting your head in the sand and insisting you already know it all.

Original poster
nonnomnom · 22/12/2015 20:51

Maid, yes that occurred to me as I posted it! But presumably they were students some time ago!

OP posts:
Original poster
nonnomnom · 22/12/2015 20:56

Oh come off it Jeanne - I said that to you not because you disagreed with my views but because you posted countless snotty ad hominems so I thought what was sauce for the goose...

I have no idea how you can think I claim to 'know it all'. I don't. THAT'S WHY I STARTED THE BLEEDING THREAD.

I give up.

OP posts:
JeanneDeMontbaston · 22/12/2015 21:00

It is abundantly obvious you don't know it all.

You'd been laying into everyone long before I started posting - and your post particularly got on my nerves not because you had a go at me, but because of your snobby comment about 'better' universities.

theycallmemellojello · 22/12/2015 21:02

Why would people post ad hominem attacks when they don't know who you are? I'm afraid that what we're dealing with is a plain old difference in opinion.

Original poster
nonnomnom · 22/12/2015 21:08

Jeanne - and your snobby posts about everyone you perceive as your academic inferior got on my nerves.

I haven't 'laid into' anyone. I've disagreed. The point of AIBU is that there are two points of view. It's rare everyone agrees in that context and it would have been a rather short and unhelpful thread if they had.

OP posts:
LadylikeCough · 22/12/2015 21:09

What absolute rubbish.

At best, you posted a deliberately misleading OP: all faux-naive questions 'is this bad? I'm so worried!' and an AIBU that was worded to get exactly the kind of reflex YANBUs you did for the first page or so. Your question could be paraphrased as 'AIBU to be a wonderful engaged student'? The opinion of your two 'fellow student' was characterised, from the start, as a 'bitching session'.

This got you one or two pages of agreement, which you heartily welcomed -- from 'fellow' students and tutors alike. I didn't notice you telling the latter they were off-topic when they were agreeing with you.

Only when people began to disagree did the whole 'actually, I teach MA students' thing arise. The more people disagreed with you, the more you referenced it. Of course it looks questionable. Bringing up an apparently crucial detail only when it serves you always looks questionable.

And you're not just 'commenting' on your own thread. You're constantly seeking to manage and direct it. I think somewhere between a quarter and a third of posts are from you, and there must've been 50 people posting here. Even saying there are only 6 or 7 of us posting repeatedly, do you still think it's totally normal for you to make 30% of the posts? Not short posts, either; your share of the word-count is probably much higher.

In the context of an AIBU about over-participation and monopolizing dialogue, to do exactly this and claim it has no connection either demonstrates a crashing lack of self-awareness, or a total disregard for the answer to the question that you asked. The academic context is barely relevant any more: this kind of bullshit pisses people off everywhere.

JeanneDeMontbaston · 22/12/2015 21:09

I'm often guilty of being patronising, and often sarcastic.

I really don't think I'm being snobby.

I just think that if this thread is representative of you, you probably do come across worse in an MA class than you think you do.

Original poster
nonnomnom · 22/12/2015 21:15

Jeanne - funnily enough, your behaviour on this thread doesn't exactly make you come across in the best light as a tutor either.

OP posts:
MaidOfStars · 22/12/2015 21:17

really laying into those who put their hand up too much, saying that others want to speak too but think more slowly so they (the quick ones) should wait and give them a chance to speak
Perfctly valid complaint and one that clarifies their issues for you. They aren't complaining about 'normal' participation, they are complaining about 'talkers'. They want to participate, they just don't get a chance to. Don't you think this is a reasonable thing to have a moan about?

I wouldn't expect my quieter students to comment on a fellow student who just participated more than they did
But as you said in your OP, it's not 'just participation' that they were complaining about, it is 'participation to the exclusion of others'. As a lecturer, I'd completely want to hear if shyer students were feeling intimidated/unable to speak because they felt a 'talker' wouldn't give them a chance if I weren't so kick ass at my job that I hadn't prevented the problem before it began

JeanneDeMontbaston · 22/12/2015 21:25

Well, I am not 'so kick ass at my job', being fairly junior, but otherwise I agree.

There is a fairly well-known effect relating to gender here, FWIW. In mixed-gender groups, if women speak as much as men, they are often perceived as dominating, even and especially if they point out that the men are interrupting them, speaking too much, or making it hard for them to make their contributions. However, if women (and men) use a more collaborative approach and monitor each others' contributions, the discussion becomes more even and is perceived as more fair by all contributors. It's quite complex - just using 'active listening' and participating eagerly isn't enough.

I do think it's normal for students to start out thinking that 'participating' is the be-all and end-all. But I don't think it is usual to be hell-bent on believing that if fellow students are uncomfortable, the fault must lie with them or the tutor.

Original poster
nonnomnom · 22/12/2015 21:31

Maid - hmm. Would I think it was a reasonable thing to complain about? Probably not - that's where my blind spot is which is why I started the thread. I don't really get the idea of wanting to participate but not. Remember that no students are calling out - this is just some students putting their hands up more often. I struggle to understand why the fact that some other people have their hands up makes some students feel intimidated about sticking their hand up as well. If you get that, please explain.

I agree with your second point totally and hope that students in that situation would feel able to raise it. We have completed anonymous midway feedback forms on this module but I don't know whether or not these students did raise the issue there or by any other means. On the whole our tutors are pretty good though and it would be very unlike them to ignore this kind of feedback so must assume it was not given. I don't think this kind of problem occurs in modules I teach...but then if these students haven't raised it, then maybe it is a problem which generally goes unraised...?

Hence my thread.

OP posts:
Original poster
nonnomnom · 22/12/2015 21:32

Last post @ Maid.

OP posts:
Original poster
nonnomnom · 22/12/2015 21:36

Jeanne - thanks for actually engaging with the topic. Wink

I don't think the proportion of people putting their hands up is gendered in this particular class, but the proportion of students being picked definitely shows a bias towards men, which of course is not unusual. It still doesn't answer why some women would not put their hands up though...? When many others do.

OP posts:
SenecaFalls · 22/12/2015 21:46

it could be that American undergrad degrees are a bit more like our high school

I'm still stuck on this. What utter rubbish.

MaidOfStars · 22/12/2015 21:47

I struggle to understand why the fact that some other people have their hands up makes some students feel intimidated about sticking their hand up as well. If you get that, please explain

It's from fear of being exposed as a little fish in a big pond and, sadly, it's self-reinforcing. People do better educationally when they feel like they are better than other students, and perform poorly when they compare themselves unfavourably. Something as chance as a small group of students being vocal/interactive in the first week can be enough to shut a slightly slower (to get their hand up) or quieter student up for a long while. It's been studied at undergrad degree level and I don't see why it wouldn't carry over to Masters (or higher degrees) on to working life.

People perform better when they are big fish. Little fish drop away.

But it's comments like this that make me wonder about your teaching. How can you not understand why students might feel intimidated? They're scared, they're worried about being wrong, they're bored because someone else always questions them anyway.

MaidOfStars · 22/12/2015 21:48

Jeanne That was a joke Grin

MaidOfStars · 22/12/2015 21:51

But it's comments like this that make me wonder about your teaching. How can you not understand why students might feel intimidated?

For clarity: it just seems that a good tutor/lecturer shouldn't be asking this. And it's rather blithe for even a fellow student.

JeanneDeMontbaston · 22/12/2015 21:55

Agree, seneca.

maid - nah, I'm sure it is true, too. Smile

I do agree students do feel intimidated by this sort of thing.

It's also not really that easy to estimate the gender split of people speaking in a group (it's the same bit of research that shows this ... that's the point of it!) when you're in that group. Even people who think they're ever so on the ball find, when their classes are analysed, that they're wrong.

This is why it matters to take into account how other people feel about the experience, and not just blithely assume that if it feels inclusive to a few people, it must be ok for everyone.