AIBU - or is my fellow student? What is 'normal' behaviour on an MA course?

[nonnomnom]

I've nearly finished a taught MA at a British university. There are many students from around the world and generally it tends to be the British students (including me) who put their hands up and volunteer answers to the course tutors during our weekly taught sessions (about 25-40 people in a room).

I'd assumed those who didn't contribute did so partly because of lack of confidence at speaking in a foreign language or in some cases I know (because they've admitted it!) that some Far Eastern students believe that student interaction is a bit pointless and they just want the teachers to tell them the 'right' answers.

But I was really shocked when I inadvertently stumbled across a bitching session by a couple of students on the course about those who participate actively in the course. I'd assumed that all native speakers would view interaction as positive and indeed, what we were there for! But here this was an American and Brit, really laying into those who put their hand up too much, saying that others want to speak too but think more slowly so they (the quick ones) should wait and give them a chance to speak. She was really vehement and I was a bit horrified to think that fellow students were thinking I was really rude because I hadn't 'waited' for them (obviously I had no way of knowing if they had great ideas brewing, were just shy, hadn't done the reading etc).

So what is normal/expected on an MA course? Were I and my 'chatty' fellow students being unspeakably insensitive and spotlight-hogging? Or was I being reasonable, and actually, active interaction and participation is what MA tutors wish to see and students ought to expect to do?

Advice please - bit late for me as I've nearly finished my course now and have been blithely chatty to date. But hoping all my fellow students haven't hated me as a result...

But why 'silently irritated', Kaki? Or why assume the student was 'showing off'? Maybe she was really interested in the topic and wanted to engage further? Again, your use of the term 'over-sharer' implies that some students are sharing...what, too much personal info? too many ideas?

As others have said on this thread, I see it as the tutor's role rather than the individual student's to ensure that everyone gets the chance to contribute (at least if they wish to).

You sound like the American woman on my course - am interested as to why you didn't contribute yourself? Did you feel it was a waste of time? That your contributions were not worth giving? That the tutors would tell you the 'right' answers so discussion was just wasting time and 'showing off'? Did you not have any additional ideas to add or questions to ask? Did you just want more time to formulate your ideas? Were you worried about getting it wrong and looking stupid in front of the class? Did you feel that people who speak up are silly/pompous/a target etc?

Sorry for so many questions but you sound the closest on this thread to the attitude I'm describing and I'm really trying to get my head round it - it is diametrically opposed to my own views on teaching/learning/equality.

Thank you.

I did contribute, but not to every question, and when I did I answered it directly rather than relating it to my experience, which is what our over-sharer did and what it sounds like you might do. She wanted to show that she knew as much - or more - than the tutor, and judging by your comments you think you have a lot of experience that can benefit the others on your course. I wouldn't be surprised if you are sharing irrelevant information and anecdotes.

I don't think it's solely the tutor's responsibility to manage contributions. You're all adults on the course, and you should all have the self-awareness to know when you're being too dominant in discussions. You now know that others felt, strongly, that you were too dominant in discussions, but you want to pass responsibility for that to the tutor.

I'm not sure why this thread has turned out so differently from the last one, where you would have got many more 'YABU' replies. If I could remember more details I would search for it so you could get a wider range of opinions.

I found it! www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2384454-To-make-an-official-accusation-of-bullying

I really don't think it matters what course you're doing. You could be doing an adult access to GCSE class, an A Level, an MA, whatever. There is an unspoken etiquette IMO.

Answer a question. Maybe two. If a third is asked and you instantly know the answer again then maybe pause for a few seconds and give others a chance.

No one likes a Monica in the class, even if you are a mature student.

I think that you're overthinking things in how difficult you're finding this to understand - a seminar is just a structured conversation. You must have had conversations with someone chatty and found it completely fine. But you've probably also had conversations with someone who talks way too much, doesn't seem interested in others' views so that it becomes annoying. It's no different in a seminar.

It really depends how much you're talking and what you're saying to know if you're being unreasonable - a certain level of engagement is fine, but there obviously comes a point when it's too much. Although for the individual it can feel great to share their views, when there is a lot of one person's voice in the class, it might not be great for others' learning.

The odd short question is fine, but lots of questions that derail the discussion are probably best dealt with after class. Answering a question is fine, answering every question at great length is probably annoying.

Also, it can depend on the competence of the student -- if someone who is continually missing the point talks a lot, then it will get annoying. Equally, if someone really brilliant talks a lot, it can shut people out of the discussion. It's also difficult because no one is really able to assess their own competence - so it's impossible for anyone to know whether their thoughts are brilliant or boring. That's why you have to take cues from others.

I'm not saying that you necessarily talk too much, but it is definitely possible in theory to talk too much. I think that if you're worried you should speak to your tutor in private.

Also, Kaki didn't say she didn't contribute. No one is saying it's not ok to speak in class. It just can be insensitive to speak too much. But unfortunately, there's no single right answer to what 'too much' is.

Thanks, Kaki. Interesting that you assumed the student being complained about by the other two was me -it wasn't, it was a young male student. The two women bitching were aged probably about 35ish and 55 ish! So one somewhat older than me! So it's not as simple as an arrogant mature student versus 'normal' younger student dynamic. Though the average 'quiet' student on the course was younger, aged about 25, they also had little professional experience and were Asian - so hard to untangle the age factor from the other factors there.

The young male student they were complaining about's responses weren't especially anecdotal, or no more than the course requires (without going into too much detail, the underlying ethos of this module was all about applying our personal, unique backgrounds to the topic, so you couldn't really have answered any other way or it would have sat oddly with the whole point of the course).

The two students bitching weren't rude enough to say to my face if they thought I fell into this category or not! I was just genuinely shocked that anyone could think like this. I certainly felt that I sympathised more with him than with them, though we differed in that he did tend to always answer for his group when doing group work, whereas I always consciously avoided this. But overall I found his contributions interesting, as I did everyone else's.

Thanks for the link - I'll have a look.

You've been worrying that they put you in the same category, according to your OP, so it's a bit disingenuous to find it "interesting" that I responded in that vein...

As you will see from the link, it's usually mature students but can easily be younger ones too.

So if the OP is at A London Uni - she will have paid about 15k plus living expenses. I paid £4.5k for my MSc + living over ten years ago ( I'm lucky - I use mine most of the time) - I put up my hand because I wanted to get the most out of an course which I was begging,borrowing and working like mad to do so. But also my lecturers would balance out the class.

Putting your hand up is not a bad thing. Putting your hand up because you've done the work is not a bad thing. Pretending that you don't care for whatever reason and don't put your hand up is the really bad thing. It's academia - not tea parties or children's birthday parties.

Monica is a TV character not real life and was written to get laughs and advertising within a half hour slot. Real life is more about putting your hand up. People don't get advertising budgets against their laughs. And no-one else will get the grade/ certificate.

theycall - disagree it's like a conversation - in a conversation, you don't put your hand up and wait to be called!!! But in a large seminar you do and it is the tutor's responsibility to choose people. Which can include people who haven't put their hand up at all, if s/he so wishes. Putting your hand up is not the same as dominating a face-to-face conversation by any means.

That's why I don't think it's rude - clearly, if we were all shouting out that would be different. When we were working in small groups, I always made sure everyone got to speak (yes, including asking the quiet person for their views) and avoided being the group spokesperson. So I don't think personally I was rude. Though in say Kaki's judgement I might be.

Yes, I agree that it is the tutor's responsibility to stop people talking too much. But ideally it doesn't get to the stage where the tutor has to think about that - they have other things to worry about as well. It can be hard for a tutor to keep track of who has spoken, as they're having to think about where the discussion is going and explain things etc. So some self-policing is helpful and considerate too.

I don't think there's that much difference between a seminar and any other kind of group conversation - in a group conversation you can't all talk over one another either, so you have to pause before speaking and watch for whether others might want to speak. There's no central power in a group conversation deciding who gets to speak next, but it's not the case that all normal rules of social interaction are suspended when there is a chairperson there.

Anyway, I'm getting the feeling that this is one of those threads where the poster has made their mind up in advance ...

bookish - absolutely - my course fees are 'only' about 6K but it's probably cost me about 3 X that minimum in lost earnings, plus an untold 'cost' in missed family time with dcs etc. So this is deadly serious for me - many of the younger foreign students seem to just be here for a laugh in London for a year. They may not even work in the field.

In my case, I want and need to get as much as possible out of the course, and the tutors absolutely appreciate that and are very supportive and clearly welcome the interaction (it's better this year as there are more chatty students, but last year, without a handful of us, literally every question would have fallen into a dead pit of silence while we all sat there. I answered then as much because I felt sorry for the poor tutor as anything.) Most of those students last year had not done/couldn't understand the reading and could not have responded, even if they'd wished to. This year, thankfully, that's not the case.

theycall - maybe it's confusing because I called it a seminar for want of a better word - we just call them 'sessions' on the course. They're more of a lecture from the tutor with some group work and occasional opportunities for questions/points from the floor. The proportion of lecturing v discussion varies differs from tutor but they are definitely not us all sitting round a big table chatting.

I am genuinely trying to understand - doesn't mean I'm going to agree.

I slightly disagree that all the responsibility is with the tutor.

Of course the tutor should try to get shy/slower students to speak up and shut down people who talk too much. But I think it's also students' responsibility to think whether they could include others more. If you're not getting your peers to speak up, you're not getting as much out of the experience as you should. If they're bright enough to be on the course, you are missing out by not hearing from them.

I do feel bad for you hearing them commenting, and for your fellow students feeling targeted by it, though.

Anyway, I'm getting the feeling that this is one of those threads where the poster has made their mind up in advance ...

Yup...

And the reason it hasn't gone the same way to a similar thread is that the OP has taken care to seem, initially, reasonable and open to opinions -- but the AIBU itself is formed so that one answer seems natural.

Were I and my 'chatty' fellow students being unspeakably insensitive and spotlight-hogging? Or was I being reasonable, and actually, active interaction and participation is what MA tutors wish to see and students ought to expect to do?

The contrast between 'unspeakably insensitive' and 'active interaction and participation' is too dramatic. Like a lot of people on this thread, I've taught similar-sized groups of mixed age and nationality, and there's obviously a margin of irritating behaviour before we get to 'unspeakably insensitive'. Do I want everyone to just sit there like a potato? No. Do I want to deal with the same person again and again -- the one who always has the question, the clarification, the anecdote, the correction? No.

It's not really possible to say YABU or YANBU depending on your first post it's the kind of thing where you really have to be there but all your subsequent posts (their detail, their frequency, and especially your barrage of questions to Kaki) do actually suggest to me that type of student profile.

And, yes, it's up to me to manage the class dynamics, but we're also all adults, and it would be nice for people to recognise their own behaviour and perhaps check it before it becomes an issue. But they never do. And not once, when it's got to the point where I've had to actually speak to a student about dominating class discussion, or constantly dragging us off-course, has the student ever thought I was being reasonable. It's always: but they're trying to help, they've got a good point, they've paid X in fees, all the other students are so dull, they're in the wrong group.

When you teach these kind of groups for long enough, you see this over and over. It doesn't really matter about age, although I do see it more with older, professional students, some of who have issues returning to a classroom environment: a lot of subtle assumptions about their own level of attaintment, their personal investment in the course, and how this relates to the younger class members and even, sometimes, the teacher. Some of your comments about your tutors are, for example, polite but patronising.

All of this is a minor but not insignificant irritation when managing group work, although -- in this case - it sounds an awful lot like the tutor's just given up and relies on the louder students to carry the lesson, with the rest of the students increasingly uninvolved.

Hmm, Lady.

I've now had a look at the previous thread and felt quite sorry for the OP! But there are several differences, which is why I supect they have elicited different reactions:

1. That was an undergraduate course, this is an MA. The expectations for student roles are different. This is a professional course and there are no teenagers on the course. We are expected to be in charge of our own learning far more.

1. Those were lectures, these are more interactive sessions (we don't have lectures and separate seminars or tutorials) and we come expected to have already done all the reading and understood the topic and prepared to engage with it, not waiting for the tutor to pass on the knowledge in a jug & mug way.

1. That poster appeared to regularly call out ideas without being asked and caused everyone else to stay behind against their wishes - I don't do any of those things!

1. I'm on a course where about 70% of the participants are non-native speakers and are clearly uncomfortable with speaking but it doesn't mean they're uncomfortable with listening. On the contrary, many of them try to engage me in 1-1 conversation after the class, thank me for helping them and giving them ideas (yes really) etc.

So err...thanks for your contribution.

That said, I do agree the tutor ought to try to involve everyone as much as possible. Because of the nature of the course, their insights are really helpful. The difficulty arises as to how to do that without 'picking on' students who really dread speaking in English in public. Or in some cases may simply not be able to.

The ettiquette is the same throughout british higher education. Your success is your responsibility. If you feel as if something needs changing then a quiet word with the tutor or an email. Much like the rest of adult life.

Im v surprised that an american is complaining - IME theyre the ones contributing the most.

And i love the expression jug and mug. Thank you for teaching me thAt today

Should add, I also have plenty of experience of teaching adults and personally I love the 'good' students who want to contribute. Less keen on the ones who shout over other students, tell them rudely that they're wrong, shout out repeatedly, take up all my break/after class time asking extra questions for which I'm not paid (hourly rate only) - but I don't actually do any of those things as a student.

Have some people on this thread mentally categorised me as the latter? I'm not... I don't think there's anyone like that on my course.

Agree, redexpat - I was shocked it was an American too! There are 3 Americans on my course, this one, one v chatty girl and one who never says a word but is best mates with the v chatty lad and the other, chatty American girl. So she presumably doesn't mind the chatting!

I'd assumed until this conversation that Americans expected people to put their ideas in a forthright manner!

At the start of this thread I thought, no, of course you are not BU, but as it has progressed I have changed my opinion somewhat. If you come across to your fellow students as you are starting to come across here, no doubt a number will be irritated by you.

A few years ago, I did a taught MA as a mature student at a good UK university. I can't think of anyone who never contributed, but there were certainly a handful of fellow students who appeared to love the sounds of their own voices rather too much. They were very good at the 'expressing my opinion' part of group discussion, not so good at the 'recognising that others may have equally relevant and interesting opinions to share' part. I'm not on your course, I have no idea how overbearing and monopolising you appear, but I'd be willing to bet the students we thought of in this way would have been as adamant as you are that the problem in no way lay with them.

alltouchedout - no, I can assure you I am very humble on my MA course! However I may come across here!

Lol.

At the start of this thread I thought, no, of course you are not BU, but as it has progressed I have changed my opinion somewhat. If you come across to your fellow students as you are starting to come across here, no doubt a number will be irritated by you.

This!

YABU, purely for being totally disingenuous. You're not 'a bit horrified' to think the other students may have found you rude. You're just numbingly keen to explain, in great detail, why you're right.

Just the fact that more than 20 of the posts in this 70-post-long thread are from the OP says a lot.

As does replying to my post with a four-point list of comparisons.

I don't personally consider this kind of behaviour as that of a 'good student', although I know the students in question generally consider themselves a huge asset to the class.

Lady - you are NOT my tutor and I am not your student! 'Good' or otherwise. Thankfully - you sound like nothing like my (excellent) tutors.

I'm sure if I hadn't responded at all (as happened on the other thread, where the poster was berated for it), you would have complained I was not interested in others' views. Here, where I respond to others views, and ask them for their point of view, you still object.

I bothered to start the thread because I was interested, surprised and yes, wanted to try to understand. That's not the same as saying that I wish to be persuaded that that student was right - I don't agree with her; on the contrary, I think she was quite rude. I think interaction is essential for learning, and I would always recommend all my students try to interact more, not less. But I do want to try to understand her thought processes.

That said, I'm glad there have been a few people who see it from her point of view towards the end of the thread because it gives me a bit more insight into that point of view. I'm interested professionally rather than personally as I've finished my taught modules now anyway. And I'm unlikely to see this particular student again.

Thanks to those who've taken the time to reply. :)

Hm yep, sorry I'm with lady and alltouched... I do understand that overhearing unkind comments that you suspect might include you can be very upsetting, and it sounds like it was a bit inappropriate for those girls to discuss their feelings in public. But continually denying that there are any circumstances in which it might be appropriate for a student to hold back from class contributions is just bizarre. Yes, teachers like their students to be engaged (including EFL students - who don't have less to contribute). No, sitting silently all the time is not the answer. But at the same time, of course it's possible to talk too much in class! Including a class where you have to raise your hand. Especially a class that's midway between lecture and seminar. It can be very difficult to know what is "too much," so I definitely sympathise with you there, but that's a separate question.