AIBU - or is my fellow student? What is 'normal' behaviour on an MA course?

[nonnomnom]

I've nearly finished a taught MA at a British university. There are many students from around the world and generally it tends to be the British students (including me) who put their hands up and volunteer answers to the course tutors during our weekly taught sessions (about 25-40 people in a room).

I'd assumed those who didn't contribute did so partly because of lack of confidence at speaking in a foreign language or in some cases I know (because they've admitted it!) that some Far Eastern students believe that student interaction is a bit pointless and they just want the teachers to tell them the 'right' answers.

But I was really shocked when I inadvertently stumbled across a bitching session by a couple of students on the course about those who participate actively in the course. I'd assumed that all native speakers would view interaction as positive and indeed, what we were there for! But here this was an American and Brit, really laying into those who put their hand up too much, saying that others want to speak too but think more slowly so they (the quick ones) should wait and give them a chance to speak. She was really vehement and I was a bit horrified to think that fellow students were thinking I was really rude because I hadn't 'waited' for them (obviously I had no way of knowing if they had great ideas brewing, were just shy, hadn't done the reading etc).

So what is normal/expected on an MA course? Were I and my 'chatty' fellow students being unspeakably insensitive and spotlight-hogging? Or was I being reasonable, and actually, active interaction and participation is what MA tutors wish to see and students ought to expect to do?

Advice please - bit late for me as I've nearly finished my course now and have been blithely chatty to date. But hoping all my fellow students haven't hated me as a result...

I'm afraid I stopped reading when I found the OP being told off for participating so much. A lot of the other comments were more to the point.

I think it is a sad thing when being enthusiastic and participating is seen as bad. IMHO this is a very teenage point of view.

Do you think stopping reading and refusing to see the whole picture is particularly un-teenage?

Participation is fine. However, it does include listening to others and making space for them to speak up, not just insisting you're right and refusing to listen to anything more - something you and the OP both seem oddly proud of yourselves for doing.

Jolly - thanks, that was a really useful post. I'm relieved to say I am definitely not a 'gunner' as you call it in class. I don't think we had any students like that on our course - we're all adult professionals so sufficiently self-aware for that to be unlikely to occur.

EBearhug - I shall indeed be making just that point as soon as my feedback form hits my inbox later this week!

Booboostwo - agree absolutely, and I think that's probably at the root of the problem. The numbers this year are about 50% up on last year and even last year there were too many people for everyone to have a crack at making their points (though problems did not arise in practice as few wished to). This year, 40+ students is just way too many given that more wish to contribute and the format remains the same. There aren't even enough chairs in the rooms! They clearly need to either reduce enrollment or run more sessions so they can split up the classes and have more manageable numbers. I wouldn't fancy teaching a supposedly 'interactive' group of 40 + people.

I'll be teaching MA students myself again in a few months, hence my professional interest.

Jeanne - you may be unaware that you come across as patronising, pompous and unable to RTFT.

You repeatedly ascribe strawmen to me and then criticise me on the basis of views I have never held - eg your comments on my supposed views about 'all Americans'. This is really quite tiresome. And it is slightly ironic that you accuse others of drawing conclusions that are not justified by the evidence! Eg, if you'd bothered to RTFT, you'd have noticed that I'd stated there were 3 Americans on my course, 1 of whom was very chatty and one of whom was her best friend so hardly as though I was ascribing the attitudes described in the OP to all Americans. It was my DH not me who suggested the American education system (NOT the nationality) could be a factor - I am happy to believe those with greater experience of it who claim that is not the case.

Like you, I have lots of experience of teaching MA students myself and will be teaching plenty more after this course is over, hence my professional interest in the topic, but would never talk down to students let alone colleagues in the way you think passes as "suitable for HE"! I feel desperately sorry for your poor students!

!!

Jeanne - you must be particularly proud of this totally unteenage-like outburst:

"Participation is fine. However, it does include listening to others and making space for them to speak up, not just insisting you're right and refusing to listen to anything more - something you and the OP both seem oddly proud of yourselves for doing."

Pot calling kettle??! Nowhere have I suggested I failed to listen to others during the course and in fact on the contrary, stated that in group discussions I said very little and saw my role as trying to make sure everyone (even the quietest students) got to speak. I always listened to others' contributions and valued them as opportunities to learn from my peers. The only point I was querying was whether it was 'rude' to put my hand up rather than waiting in case quieter people might be thinking more slowly than me!

You're either having a bad day or you're just quite a rude person or prone to jumping to major conclusions. Not my problem!

saw my role as trying to make sure everyone (even the quietest students) got to speak
Genuine question: why do you see this as your role? And do you think that might come across to others in a different manner to that you intended?

And if I didn't previously think you were of the opinion that you knew better than your tutor how to teach, I am starting to think that now.

MaidofStars - I can categorically state I am NOT of the opinion that I know better than my tutor how to teach. I paid 6K for the course because my tutors are excellent and know their stuff. Why would I waste my time and money if what you stated was what I believed?! I'm not quite clear how you could have drawn from anything I have said on this thread that I think I have nothing to learn from my tutors?! They are all internationally-renowned experts in their fields.

And as to your first question, clearly damned if I do and damned if I don't! When working in small groups with fellow native speakers, I didn't see that as my role because I assumed they'd put their views across if they wanted to. But in small groups with solely Asian students (often the case), the Asian students tended to expect the native speakers to 'lead' the discussion and so all of us native speakers were thrust into that role, like it or not.

No, I do know I come across as patronising by now.

It's cos I'm getting a little bit fed up, as you must surely have realised.

You've demonstrated pretty clearly you won't listen to points of view other than the one you've already decided is correct. That's not really very likely to help you learn.

I will say, though: it's six years since I finished my masters, and there were people on that course who are now my colleagues and my first source of support at work - because we all learned how to interact properly.

You started this threat claiming you wanted help. Maybe you should consider that the rest of us don't have any vested interests here - it's only you does, so chances are if several of us are getting the same impression, we might have a shadow of a point.

Jeanne - am I the person who has "demonstrated pretty clearly they won't listen to points of view other than the one they've already decided is correct" ? or are you?

You've decided for reasons best known to yourself to label me as someone who interrupts repeatedly, never lets anyone else speak and thinks they know more than their tutors. I quite agree this kind of person would be annoying - but it bears zero relationship to my attitudes or behaviour in the class.

I'm sorry if you repeatedly have students like this - I've had them very, very occasionally. It must be very frustrating for you. Maybe you should get a better job at a better university or upgrade your skills if students keep doing this to you.

Like I said. Not my problem.

Aww this thread was useful. Now I have no idea whether you're meant to participate in classes or not at MA level.

Fwiw no one in my class was a "gunner", but I don't think it's coinkydink that the ones who got the best grades were the ones who participated in seminars etc the most.

Jeanne - of posters on this thread, the ratio of people who are supportive versus those who aren't is about 10:3.

I'm genuinely grateful to those who've responded recently to give me the other point of view, because that's why I started the thread - I was trying to understand where this particular student was coming from and although it's nice to hear backing for my own viewpoint, it obviously doesn't get me any nearer understanding hers. If all I'd wanted was sympathy, I wouldn't have bothered posting on AIBU, I'd just have chatted to my DH.

However, although I want to understand where she's coming from, it doesn't mean I'm going to agree with her. I think what I've learnt from this thread is

a) it's useful for tutors to clarify participation norms early on.
b) interaction doesn't work well when class sizes are too big
c) some students feel that it is the responsibility of other students to facilitate their learning, not just the tutor (NB others disagree).

That's useful feedback for me to take away and dwell on and hope it will be useful for anyone else who stumbles across this thread. Were you a reflective type, it might even be interesting and useful for you, Jeanne. (Except obviously everything you do is perfect already.)

This is an interesting conclusion to draw:

"c) some students feel that it is the responsibility of other students to facilitate their learning, not just the tutor (NB others disagree)."

I think perhaps a more helpful conclusion might be that in an educational setting, the best atmosphere is one in which there is no single dominant voice, but rather all students are able to learn to express themselves without fear of censure. Outspoken and extroverted students can do their quieter classmates a service by helping them to learn to speak up, and perhaps quieter students can help the extroverted ones learn to listen more deeply.

Holy crap what a car crash. This is embarrassing to read.

And jorah, I'd like to point out that I would be very hesitant to conclude that there is a causative relationship there. I did very well at uni, but the level of my participation in seminars varied wildly from week to week and seemed to show clear correlation with whether I happened to have made it through the reading in time for a given seminar...

PitilessYank - that's probably a point d.

But useful.

jorah - sorry the thread hasn't been more useful for you!

My experience as both student and tutor is that interaction and participation does lead to better grades - or maybe, as Jeanne might prefer to put it, it correlates with good grades, ie those who care enough to participate also care enough to do the reading and work on the assignments. Ie students who actively participate in class are likely to be those who take responsibility for their own learning generally and hence make better progress. Though I think that's too modest a claim actually - my participation has allowed me to clarify things I'm not sure of, so I'd definitely say it actively helps me learn.

Is that any help? :)

those who care enough to participate also care enough to do the reading and work on the assignments

I don't think it's a particularly strong correlation, IME. And certainly not strong enough to induce me to predict good grades based on behaviour in seminars/group work.

People learn differently. It's perfectly possible to eschew participation and get excellent grades. It's also possible to be confident and vocally thorough, but not perform well on paper.

And if you take someone who is culturally 'programmed' to keep quiet in front of others yet beaver away studiously behind the scenes, you end up with a perfect contradiction!

That's true, Maid - I'm certainly not saying that those who don't feel comfortable participating will automatically do badly. Shy students, for example, who are listening intently to others may do as well or better.

My point was rather that if you are keen to talk and participate, that's a good thing not a bad thing, and means you are engaged in the topic. As long as you are also listening to what others have to say - but then I include active listening in 'participation', not only speaking.

I also agree, obviously, that speaking up in class is no substitution for actually doing the reading and thinking out of class! The former should follow from the latter or why would you be speaking?!

nom, once again, you are showing exactly how you must come across in class.

No, I don't repeatedly have students who don't know how to interact - let alone at postgrad level. The problem is not me.

Had I started a thread asking for help managing my students, suggesting I upgrade my skills might be helpful and relevant (though suggesting I work at a better university would still come across as snobby, ignorant, and petty). Since you started the thread, you might consider listening instead of attacking.

Holy crap what a car crash. This is embarrassing to read.

It now resembles one of those brilliant Alan Parker monologues: the kind where you start off taking the narrator at face value, but page by page, detail by detail become less convinced, and by the end your impression of them is perfectly opposed to the one they're trying to make.

So... 5 pages in. OP is now helpfully and not at all overbearingly summing up the discussion, thanking people for participation, advising people to upgrade their skills etc. (Jeanne I hope you took note). The conclusions reached range from self-serving to completely skewed.

Also, we have wobbled quite far off course from the first post, which purported to be from a student who wanted advice, was 'a bit horrified' to be perceived as rude, and wanted to know what was 'normal' on an MA course.

The OP now has plenty of teaching experience it seems to increase every time a lecturer or tutor tries to deviate from the 'engaged students participate, therefore all participation is welcome' line and we're now having a professional-to-professional chat. Please stay on the ball. OP teaches plenty of MA students. That's why she needs to ask what normal behaviour is on an MA course.

Honestly, why are people confused? OP has said repeatedly, at great length and volume, that SHE DOES NOT MONOPOLIZE DIALOGUE. SHE DOES NOT. THAT'S JUST NOT WHAT SHE'S ABOUT. WHY, AFTER 30-ODD POSTS, ARE SOME OF YOU STILL NOT GETTING THIS?

Alan Bennett monologues, I mean. Although throw in Alan Partridge, too.

(I would like to nominate LadylikeCough for the Best Username on Mumsnet. )