Halal meat

[FairyFluffbum]

This is not supposed to cause conflict but I am genuinely confused as to why it's controversial anymore?

People keep talking about how it's cruel but I know in this country all animals have to be stunned in order to be killed whether they are halal or not.

So what am I missing? Why do people keep boycotting it?

Yes Araiba, that's very nice. But why do you prioritise some people's imaginary friends more highly than others? Why do you think some people should be able to eat in the way their imaginary friend dictates, but you want to deny others the ability to eat as their imaginary friend (or their very real conscience) wants them to? And as I said before, the fact that you don't want to eat halal meat is irrelevant. Just because you personally believe one thing doesn't mean it's right for you to insist the same choices on others.

Can you explain why the choices of one imaginary friend are more important to you than another's? I've asked you time and again and you won't answer.

subject, the prayer and the fact the animal has been subject to a religious issue is a problem for some people.

I wish we could have a religion called.....Common sense. One that didn't have ridiculous rituals that are basically meaningless.

as far as i am aware, most major world religions dont have these requirements for how animals they eat are killed. christians, atheists, hindus can eat the meat they choose with no concern. muslims and jews cant so they are labelled so they know which ones to buy.

just eat bacon

if you are not a religious believer (I'm not) prayer is just words. People are allowed to say words.

no-one should have a problem with others praying.

atheist does not mean anti-religion for everyone else as long as it does no harm. Words do no harm.

ofafrench you don't fund an imam to get halal meat. Imams give classes in mosques run daily prayer services in mosques, they don't spend their time praying over meat. they're not all extremists as your statement implies. Any muslim who can say the basic words can do the slaughter of the animal, its not Imams at all. If it were permitted I could get a live chicken and slaughter it in my back garden, but im too chicken to do that, and im a hypocrite I would feel so guilty I couldn't kill it. maybe if I grew up on afarm id have a different attitude.

Very much like Kosher meat, and muslims can actually consume Kosher meat. I think the standards for Kosher meat are far stricter, one has to qualify to slaughter the animal not just any layman is permitted.

You don't have to like the religion but unfortunately you are coming across as a bigot even if you are being diplomatic in your wording. Why are you ok with funding rabbis who slaughter kosher meat? It's a very ignorant statement right?, because Rabbis don't slaughter the meat they're busy doing more important things, just like Imams.

It's up to you. If you are all for animal welfare then I can understand maybe but we actually have high standards for animals. the reason they are preferred unstunned is because the animal is killed instantly via the jugular vein, and blood is fully drained, we are not allowed to consume blood. Stunning doesn't always render the animal dead, they can thus be suffering then are fully slaughtered. It's not just stunning, electric bolts, chickens being put into boiling water alive it all occurs in the western meat industry it is considered more humane. We can quibble over it all day but Jewish people, and Christians in middle eastern countries still follow the non stunned method, they deem it to be better for the animal and human.

if its not a concern over animal welfare then I think you are discriminating, as your words have suggested.

Ironically curry and is the most popular takeaway next to Chinese in the uk, and nearly all of these curry restaurants and takeaways are ran by muslims, most of them use halal meat, some don't care they will use non halal because halal meat that is unstunned can cost a bit more. Fried chickens outlets too mostly ran by muslims.

The truth is its hard to find trustworthy muslims to supply unstunned halal meat, they will have a license professing unstunned meat, but they willhappily mix meat up and put on licenced stickers to make a quick profit. Ive come across it a few times, I went veggy for a few months in protest lol, but I did find it hard since I grew up eating meat.

I eat meat but if I had the will power I would prefer to be a veggy or I could eat fish and veg very easily since most of my diet is based on that. I fear I would crave meat though.....

Araiba, Sikh's can't eat halal at all, many Christians also object. Some people object as they are atheist. You simply cannot say that every person of another religion (or none) can have no objection. It's bollocks, and considering that churches can't agree on these things between themselves I'm not quite sure how some random on the internet has suddenly appointed themselves as the overall arbiter of what people of faiths should or shouldn't do.

So if you're saying that they should just eat bacon, surely by the same token Muslims should just be told to eat vegetarian? But you wouldn't do that because you prioritise the religious beliefs of Muslims and believe that accommodations should be allowed for them to eat as they wish whilst following their own religion. But when other people want to do something different you say there should be no accommodation for them to eat as they wish. That's just blatant hypocrisy.

Incidentally many Hindus won't eat halal for religious reasons.

Meat is murder!

Not to worry. Soon no animals will need to be killed as lab grown meat will be as economically viable as slaughtered meat, except no animals will be killed and it will be better for the environment. A win-win for everyone and every animal.

It's stupid. If you care about animal welfare then don't kill animals.
Those who eat factory farmed, non free range, cheap meat and then moan about Halal are hypocritical and racist.

booyaka its interesting you mentioned Sikhs eating meat. As I understand it there is no ritual slaughter for Sikhs is there?, that's what my friends in the past told me. But because of the hatred regarding war muslims against Sikhs in Indian history they are adamant their followers don't touch halal meat. but all other meat including kosher is fine.

Another irony is strictly speaking Sikhs are supposed to follow a vegetarian diet, and those who are baptised as Sikhs strictly follow this, others don't. Ive nothing against this aspect, but if its ok to eat other meat why not halal.

my sikh friends used to go into fried chicken outlets and still eat the halal meat, but they said if their parents found out thered be in a lot of trouble.

Totally agree with everything Booyaka is saying and surprised nobody has responded to her properly yet.

The Sikh religion expressedly forbids its followers from eating either kosher or halal meat because they are not allowed to eat meat that has been ritually slaughtered with prayers (Kutha meat) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kutha_meat. Why should a Sikh child in a school where only halal meat is served be forced to either go against the beliefs of their religion or have no choice but to eat vegetarian (when they don't want to)? Booyaka is right in asking why in this instance the rights of Muslim children to eat halal has prominence over the rights of Sikh children (or anyone whose beliefs are against eating meat that has been killed by ritual slaughter)?

Sikhs don't have to be vegetarian, no meat is served in their temples but they can eat meat and still be fully compliant in their religion. They can't eat any meat which is killed in a ritualistic manner because it breaks one of their central codes of conduct too. That includes Kosher, so all to do with ritual, nothing to do with hating Muslims or invasion, unless there was some sort of Jewish invasion of India which nobody except the Sikhs noticed.

IMO All slaughter should comply with best practice animal welfare guidelines whether religious or otherwise. Religion shouldn't be used as an excuse for being able to do something terrible!

To the person up thread who suggested curtailing religious practices because we found them unacceptable would make us "no better than the Saudis", well, I can handle the idea of cultural relativism, but religious freedom has to be secondary to other moral codes. If it isn't then we would have to allow FGM, child brides, stonings and all sorts of horrific things in the name of religion.

(I am ok with the idea of prayers being said over meat and with labelling Halal / Kosher etc though as it makes life easier for all parties)

I imagine the net result of outlawing slaughter without stunning would be that religions would either adapt to society and redefine prayers only as being acceptable, that a small amount of old style religious slaughter would still take place underground and that some religious people would become vegetarian. Overall a pretty good result.

A good result that people are forced to be vegetarians who don't want to be? Really?

I am the PP who apparently would accept FGM, child brides, stonings and all sorts of horrific things because I don't want to forbid halal and kosher meat. Except I wouldn't, of course. FGM, child brides, stonings are harmful to people. Unstunned slaughter is not.

Banning unstunned meat wouldn't ban halal Andrew. Most halal is stunned. Kosher is all unstunned. I think the ideal would be finding a method of stunning which was more compatible than a bolt in the head. That would probably make it more expensive though, which is probably the main issue.

But comparing a ban on religious slaughter to the things that go on in Saudi is fucking ridiculous.

howtorebuild

really? Does it taste of piety? or deceit?

evilcherub are you saying there is a school where only halal meat is served and Sikhs are being forced to eat it? Ive never heard of such schools usually its non halal meat being served. my solution is eat vegetarian food at school, my kids do. I am muslim so my kids have weeks where they have packed lunches and when tehyre bored they get school lunches veg only. Some of my kids can eat fish too, but 1 is allergic. I don't see it as discrimination i mean it wont kill my child to forgo meat for one meal . So how is it any different?

btw something booya mentioned about most halal meat being stunned. The truth is strictly speaking halal meat is not meant to be stunned its only muslims in the west who say its halal;. in any other country muslims would say it was forbidden meat.. Since the scholars in the uk wont man up and admit stunned meat is not permitted, it is allowed. Now we have factions saying stunned halal meat is fine and those saying no unstunned halal or go veg. I don't argue with these people ive chosen unstunned based on textual evidence. If there was only stunned so called halal meat i would stick to fish and veg and I'm sure i wouldn't die. A lot of the arguments are based on financial gain too, stunned halal meat is cheaper and faster to produce so of course they will say its acceptable for muslims to consume especially the slaughter houses and butchers. most folks wont ask if the window says halal they will purchase it.

Ive discussed this many times and told my husband we cant trust muslims for our meat now, but we can trust Jewish butchers. They sell stunned meat under the guise of unstunned quite often yet hold licenses for strictly unstunned meat they make me sick! So stories like horse meat in halal meat in supermarket for pork found in halal meat doesn't surprise me, its usually corrupt muslims who do it to make a quick buck.

Really? That's unusual these days. Regardless, the same logic would apply for me. Your children shouldn't have their diet restricted by the availability of food which meets their dietary requirement, and it would be best if they were given a halal meat option IMO. If children come from poor backgrounds school meals can be a crucial part of their diet, and to restrict them from eating meat, especially if they're just having vegetables instead of a balanced meal, is not ideal for them. And if they're not getting decent meals at home could harm them.

But then I think the same thing applies for children who don't wish to eat halal meat. It should be a case of make provision for everybody to have different things or just offer vegetarian for everybody. One group shouldn't be singled out for preferential treatment as far as dietary options go, be that Muslim or non-Muslim.

And yes, considering many schools have gone entirely halal there are Sikh's in that position. At one point they were doing it in Southall which has a very high Sikh and Hindu population, both of which might object to halal meat.

booya ok i wasn't aware of that. But whats wrong with veggy food. I'm not supporting muslims in any way believe me I'm not, they should make it fair for everyone at school. But i guess because ive grown up eating veggy options or fish at school and uni i just see it as normal. I thought southall had a greater population of Sikhs than muslims?, I guess i must be wrong if the school has only halal meat? To be honest I'm surprised the council permitted it since this is essentially a Christian country however secular it may be. I mean in Saudi i cant imagine the king (hypocrite) declaring non halal meals for Christians. I wouldn't let my kids eat halal meat if their schools supplied it simply because most likely it would be stunned meat anyway.

you can get a balanced healthy meal with just veggies too it doesn't have to include meat. None of my hindu friends eat meat they are perfectly healthy.

Andrewfogg if your assessment is that religious freedom is more important than animal welfare then you're entitled to that view of course, but my view is that it is not.

Consequently if non- stunned slaughter was outlawed and a (probably small) number of people chose to become veggie rather than eat stunned meat then no, I don't think that's a tragedy.... If something I did was made illegal on grounds of cruelty in quite a liberal western country I think I'd be asking myself a lot of questions about if what I was doing was acceptable or not.

(And btw I speak as someone with a special diet which is not adequately catered for in the UK)

Katarzyna79
I'm interested to hear that you are now (thinking of?) sourcing your meat from Kosher butchers as it better satisfies rules on stunning.... Surely it would not satisfy the Halal rules on needing to be blessed? Or is that considered less important than the need to be stunned?

Do you have a link on the "official" Islamic standpoint? (Out of interest.)

Religious freedom is an aspect of human rights. Animals don't have rights although we have duties towards them. It follows that the right to buy kosher or unstunned halal must prevail.

If you disagree you need to be aware of just what company you are keeping, and it's not good.