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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Halal meat

153 replies

FairyFluffbum · 15/12/2015 17:29

This is not supposed to cause conflict but I am genuinely confused as to why it's controversial anymore?

People keep talking about how it's cruel but I know in this country all animals have to be stunned in order to be killed whether they are halal or not.

So what am I missing? Why do people keep boycotting it?

OP posts:
howtorebuild · 16/12/2015 15:23

Clearly not everyone.

araiba · 16/12/2015 15:27

if the meat changed colour after being prayed at, fair enough, but not a single person on the planet could tell if their meat had been prayed at or not, so it makes no difference

BooyakaTurkeyisMassive · 16/12/2015 15:28

Araiba, in that case I assume that you would support the ceasing of halal meat being labelled to, as it makes no difference? If it makes no difference anybody else should care about why should Muslims care?

araiba · 16/12/2015 15:33

Halal meat is more than just the prayer part

but the previous poster felt that prayer made a difference to the meat

Halal meat should be labelled as halal so that those who want it can find it. But I have no problem with halal meat not being labelled as halal and being sold generally

BooyakaTurkeyisMassive · 16/12/2015 15:39

Yes, but a Muslim wouldn't eat it without the prayer part so obviously they believe that it changes the meat in some manner, spiritually rather than physically.

So basically, yes Araiba, what you are saying is that you believe that the beliefs of Muslims are more important than everybody else's. You think that they should have products labelled on the basis of a religiously ritualistic killing accompanied by a prayer.

Yet anybody else who has other beliefs, Sikh's, atheists, Christians, who chose not to eat halal shouldn't by the same token have the same choice.

Why do you prioritise the beliefs of Muslims so much more highly than those of others?

TheoriginalLEM · 16/12/2015 16:01

Booyaka - ritualistic killing?? do you really have to use such emotive language? The meat is prayed over (not sure if before or after) and that really is all as far as "ritual" goes. Anything else i would describe as a procedure, just like any other poor bugger thats hung upside down, stunned and then bled out - you know, just like the rest of the meat.

I am not Muslim so i don;t have any beliefs regarding the prayer that takes place so for me, the meat is unchanged. So it is no skin off my nose if it is Halal or not. If i were a Jew, that would be different because obviously i would want me meat to be kosher, but the issue would not be it behing Halal it would be being not kosher. As a catholic, it has no bearing. My daughter's school is catholic but all the meat is halal, simply because the suppliers supply halal meat. I have no problem with this - why should i?

As other posters have said, i want my meat to have had good welfare standards whilst it was alive and to have been killed as quickly and humanely as possible and i don't think Halal interfere's with that process.

I honestly think that people are falling for anti islamic bullshit and there are probably more pressing issues of animal welfare than whether the meat is halal.

I wonder if all the Britain first types jumping up and down in outrage (metaphorically speaking because most of these types spread their drivel by hitting share on facebook) don't have indian food? as in, the friday night curry?? I bet they bloody do.

I've seen people post this shit of facebook and i know they don't care what manner of processed shit they shovel down their or their children's necks wihtout a second thought for the welfare of the animal - its hypocrisy at its finest.

howtorebuild · 16/12/2015 16:07

Personally I don't follow any organised religion anymore. I don't want anyone praying over my food. I can thank God directly myself, I don't need a third party getting involved.

Gruntfuttock · 16/12/2015 16:07

Well said LEM.

BooyakaTurkeyisMassive · 16/12/2015 16:49

It is a religious ritual and therefore ritualistic. It fits in with the definition of a ritual. It’s prayed over and then treated in a certain way including having the blood drained out. It’s important that it’s a ritual because other people may well not want to consume something which has gone through a ritual related to a religion to which they don’t adhere
.
I really don’t care what your views on halal or if you and your family choose to eat it or not. It really has no bearing on the choices that other people wish to make and is utterly irrelevant to a wider conversation about whether or not halal meat should be labelled because it’s simply your own personal choice. But it’s a personal choice that you don’t wish other people to have. You’re getting quite worked up about not being expected to have a problem with something yourself and choosing not to eat it, but I don’t understand why you can’t see that other people have just as much right to object to something.

Sikhs cannot eat halal full stop. Some Christians don’t want to eat halal for religious reasons. Just because your school has decided to go for halal doesn’t mean that all Christians are obliged to feel the same way. The headmistress is not God (although I think it’s interesting that they have chosen to inform the parents that it is halal). Some atheists may object too, in the same way some refuse to go to religious services.

And aside from the bullshit about Britain First, which is a classic way of trying to shut down a debate when you don’t actually have any argument, you and the other posters have completely ignored my question. Why is it reasonable for Muslims to be able to make an informed choice on eating food which has been treated in a religious manner that they choose, and for other people to choose not to? Why are their beliefs more important than the beliefs of those who do not wish to eat it for whatever reason? People on this thread have said that those objections should be unilaterally dismissed because it ‘makes no difference’ whilst supporting the right of Muslims to eat halal. Either it makes a difference or it doesn’t, you can’t say ‘Oh, well it makes a difference to this group of people, but to these people it makes no difference’. It just doesn’t make sense.

Unless, of course, you are giving one person’s beliefs more importance than anothers. Which is what you and lot of other people on this thread are doing. Personally I think everybody should have a choice to make an informed decision, including Muslims, and halal and non-halal should be labelled so that people can choose which they eat. Because I don’t prioritise the right of one group to eat meat which conforms to their personal beliefs any higher than any other.

If someone could make some sort of coherent argument why it is logical to support the right of Muslims to eat according to their beliefs while dismissing the rights of others to do the same thing I would be really interested to hear it. But really, it just boils down to 'Muslims beliefs are more important than anybody else's'. Which is always skirted around in the argument against labelling halal meat, but is always present too.

BooyakaTurkeyisMassive · 16/12/2015 16:51

*But it's not a personal choice you wish others to have.

purplehazed · 16/12/2015 17:04

What would be the reasons for not stunning, it's barbaric not to surely?

DorotheaHomeAlone · 16/12/2015 17:08

Quite a bit of misinformation on here!

All meat in this country is required to be stunned except that slaughtered in religious slaughter houses. So halal and kosher meat is exempt. Both religions argue that their methods are humane but the fact remains the animals are conscious during slaughter. That is the reason organisations such as the British veterinary association and rspca are campaigning for the loophole to be closed. They don't care at all about the prayer aspect but welfare at slaughter is a very important issue affecting thousands of animals.

harshbuttrue1980 · 16/12/2015 17:14

If you were to be hung upside down and have your throat slit so you could be bled to death, wouldn't you rather be stunned first? Some halal meat is stunned first (with a voltage of stun which is normally not allowed as it isn't strong enough), others are not stunned. I posted a link to a Tesco leaflet on the first page of this thread confirming that halal meat does not have to be stunned.

I'm a vegetarian and hate all slaughter. There are plenty of articles online about the atrocities in both halal and non-halal slaughterhouses. However, in my view, animals should be stunned so that they can't feel anything before they are killed. I don't care if they say prayers or not, but the animal should not be bled to death while conscious.

purplehazed · 16/12/2015 17:16

Religious slaughter houses? good grief, I didn't know there were such things.

wasonthelist · 16/12/2015 17:30

[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11378667/Sharp-rise-in-halal-abattoirs-slaughtering-animals-without-stunning-them-first.html]

Andrewofgg · 16/12/2015 17:34

The provision in the law which allows all people in this country to eat in a manner which is consistent with their beliefs is not a "loophole", DorotheaHomeAlone. It's part of the law of any country which truly respects religious freedom and diversity. To forbid halal or kosher meat or both would reduce us to the level of Saudi where only halal meat is allowed.

purplehazed · 16/12/2015 17:36

Sounds awful

purplehazed · 16/12/2015 17:41

I don't think there's any excuse for animals not being stunned. Why should prayers come in to it.

wasonthelist · 16/12/2015 17:48

. To forbid halal or kosher meat or both would reduce us to the level of Saudi where only halal meat is allowed.
No it wouldn't. It would make us a country in which secular animal welfare standards and the rule of law trump outdated religious slaughter practises. The only thing that would reduce us the their level would be doing the same as them.

DorotheaHomeAlone · 16/12/2015 17:51

Clumsy choice of words. It is a derogation. No one is trying to forbid halal or kosher. Simply to enforce stunning for all animals that are slaughtered. Modern research showing the pain felt by animals between cutting and death did not exist when these religious rules were written. The humane stunning methods used did not exist either and at the time shecita and halal slaughter were probably very advanced in terms of humaneness. Now we have better methods and some of the people interpreting these old rules will not allow them to be updated in line with modern practice. Some will which is why around 85% of halal slaughter involves some stunning.

BooyakaTurkeyisMassive · 16/12/2015 17:55

A lot of halal meat is prestunned. Apparently they had to do a lot of tests to prove to Muslims that the animal would always recover. They did, and most of them accepted this. The majority of halal meat is prestunned now. So banning not prestunning wouldn't outlaw halal meat, plenty would still be available.

Personally I don't think that banning it is a sensible option. I just think it should be labelled in the interests of fairness, so the beliefs of people who don't wish to eat halal are given equal weight and respect as the beliefs of those who do.

Andrewofgg · 16/12/2015 17:58

Dorothea if stunning is enforced the meat is not kosher; if you want to enforce stunning you do want to forbid kosher meat.

araiba · 16/12/2015 18:12

halal food is labelled so muslims know they can eat it. They cant eat other meat.

kosher food is labelled so jews know they can eat it. they cant eat non kosher.

its all a nonsense but it is what it is

i dont have any imaginary friends so as long as it is good quality meat it matters not a jot if it is halal, kosher or neither to me

specialsubject · 16/12/2015 18:22

you all have google. Search on this to see the actual UK law and procedures for animal slaughter.

uk law stunning for slaughter

Prayer is not the issue. No-one knows what the most humane method is. It is not certain if stunning before cutting helps or not. Read the non-religious slaughter sections to see the approved methods of stunning. I'm not convinced it is better.

eat meat? Animals need to be killed. Don't like that? Don't eat meat.

I eat meat.

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