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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Feeling black vs feeling female

214 replies

CherryPicking · 14/12/2015 12:25

Rachel Dolezal caused huge offence by claiming to be of African American descent. Not questioning why that's offensive, but if she sincerely identifies with black culture more than her own, how is she different from a man who 'feels' female? Why should the second example be less offensive to members of the oppressed group in question? Not saying I'm in any way offended by men who 'feel' female or identify as trans but just wondering why I'm more accepting of that then I would be someone like RD? Is it social conditioning or is there another reason?

OP posts:
EnthusiasmDisturbed · 20/12/2015 10:14

I think you can still tell with Asian trans women though agree being smaller helps looking more feminine

DeoGratias · 20/12/2015 10:17

I certainly remember how fascinating it wasover 30 years ago at university in the family law course studying all the early cases on transgender - that was before English law allowed you to change sex. I have always felt sorry for those who feel they are born into the wrong body as it were and I think most people don't want them to be subject to discrimination but I wouldn't want one as a boyfriend, just as I have a heap of other requirements too including I don't want someone who is ill or has depression and by law I can be as picky as I like as whatever my filters are they still seem to lead me with a lot of choice of a lovely men out there to whom I do feel attracted.

ottothedog · 20/12/2015 10:26

fascicle so as you yourself say, you both need and dont need a grc to access a prison of the opposite biological sex - in other words, they say you need a grc but it turns out you dont. Yes, i was also thinking of the prostitute who advertised their '7 inch surprise' penis as part of their services and was sent to a woman's prison.

ottothedog · 20/12/2015 10:31

Cant be arsed this nice sunday morning so a quick link to an article about the problems of self declaring transgender status
youngradicalfeminists.wordpress.com/2015/10/30/tara-hudson/

fascicle · 21/12/2015 12:51

ottothedog
fascicle so as you yourself say, you both need and dont need a grc to access a prison of the opposite biological sex - in other words, they say you need a grc but it turns out you dont.

Not what I said at all. You said:

Conversely, you can be treated as the opposite sex by public institutions such as the prison service without having a gender certificate for that gender, but by getting a boob job.

So your highly misleading claim was based on the prison swap of just one person without a GRC - Tara Hudson. Somebody who in addition to 'getting a boob job' had accessed the services of a gender clinic; had had surgerical and hormonal treatment; had identified as a woman for years. Even your article concedes: 'He (sic) may or may not pose a risk to female inmates – we simply don’t know.' So, essentially, the objections to Tara Hudson being housed in a women's prison were nothing more than conjecture. Hudson has now been released from the women's prison where she carried out most of her sentence with no suggestion of any incidents on her part.

TheXxed
I was talking about using the law as a point of reference not as a comparison to transgenderism Hmm

But now I think about it the comprisons stand up, slavery, rape and discrimination were legal because of thoughts based not on facts or evidence but societal norms.

It's hard to believe that your juxapositioning was accidental, especially since you have now developed the comparison. In what way do you consider that the legislation of rights for trangender people is based on societal norms?

There is no evidence for a male or female brain yet the law is willing to accept this because the law is not based on empirical evidence but reflects the thoughts and views of society (or those who hold power)

How is 'a male or female brain' relevant to the debate, and what proof do you want to accept transgenderism? Thankfully in the UK the decriminalisation of homosexual acts, and the shifting of societal attitudes towards acceptance of different sexual orientations, has not required the evidence you seem to want for transgenderism.

ottothedog · 21/12/2015 14:51

I dont see why it is misleading? You dont need a grc to be put in a prison of the opposite biological sex. You said you did. Then said there was one exception you knew about. So it isnt actually the case you need a grc to be put in a prison of the opposite biological sex at all. Did this person have surgery other than a boob job? Do female prostitutes usually use their penises when living as female prostitutes? I thought that was more a 'living as a man' thing?

ottothedog · 21/12/2015 15:04

I dont know all that much about the history of legislation around homosexuality, but it seems a shift in societal views of the cause from 'nurture' to 'nature' parallels the change in legislation? Up to the 80s and clause iv, it was something you might 'catch' by hearing about it and being taught about it in schools, also something you could choose, therefore also something you could choose not to be. A change in attitudes towards homosexuality as innate seems to coincide with gradual changes in the law. But as i said, i dont know much about this, is this not an accepted view of the situation?

ottothedog · 21/12/2015 15:17

www.gpnotebook.co.uk/simplepage.cfm?ID=x20100810201516329264

And final post before xmas shopping :)
This is how you change your gender for nhs etc. Have a read. Does it sound like the GP is going to say no? Any mention of surgery/hormones/living as a member of the opposite biological sex? Nope, you 'self declare' as i said

HermioneWeasley · 21/12/2015 15:46

I thought Tara had not accesses any UK gender services, but had bought hormones off the Internet and had a boob job abroad. Given that they have a working penis, I'm not sure how much of a hormone regime they can be on

Timri · 21/12/2015 16:08

Reading the story about the trans(gender/sexual?) in Canada who successfully sued the rape crisis centre for not allowing them to work there made me furious. Thank god the decision was overturned on appeal

HermioneWeasley · 21/12/2015 16:15

timri it was only overturned because it was a volunteer role. If it had been a paid job, they would have been forced to employe a male in a rape crisis centre. Even the judge in the case noted that the trans individual's motivation seemed to be the ultimate validation of their "womanhood"

Timri · 21/12/2015 16:25

Hermione To say that's worrying would be the understatement of the fucking century! Shock

Timri · 21/12/2015 16:28

I'll be the first to admit I'm not very aware about trans issues.
But since seeing this thread I've had a little read on the Internet, and quite a few of these trans issues sound a hell of a lot like 'misogyny' to me...

HermioneWeasley · 21/12/2015 16:39

timri - agree, the idea that women and feminism need to be not just including, but centring a subset of men in all we do is just baffling. And women and feminists are supporting this, abusing and silencing anyone who tries to challenge the obvious nonsense.

I'm speaking to everyone about it in RL and I've yet to meet anyone who agrees that "biology is socially constructed". But my friends are just normal people, not active in the trans or LGBT movements. I think it's really important that we expose this outside the social media bubble and ask people if they'd be happy sharing a shower with Coleen Francis, or did they know Tara Hudson makes their living from their working penis, or showing the photo of 6'8" ex marine Gabrielle with the girls college basketball team.

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