Feeling black vs feeling female

[CherryPicking]

Rachel Dolezal caused huge offence by claiming to be of African American descent. Not questioning why that's offensive, but if she sincerely identifies with black culture more than her own, how is she different from a man who 'feels' female? Why should the second example be less offensive to members of the oppressed group in question? Not saying I'm in any way offended by men who 'feel' female or identify as trans but just wondering why I'm more accepting of that then I would be someone like RD? Is it social conditioning or is there another reason?

Given what we know about neuroplasticity, it seems reasonable to explain most (if not all) of the observable differences in male and female brains in any of the emerging studies as being the result of gender socialisation (rather than some kind of essential gender identity).

step two recent studies - one meta analysis of all the research and another one trying to identify the sex based on the brain, found no differences. As I've said before though (and agreeing with you), if there are differences I suspect they are explained by socialisation via neuroplasticity rather than innate sex based brain differences.

I suspected the studies showed no real differences, but people are keen to claim that evidence is emerging. And, as you say, even if some evidence did emerge, it's likely that it's the cause of social practices rather than some sort of innate gender identity, so it wouldn't serve the gender essentialist argument anyway.

I mean, if you have this great person, and everyone thinks she's great, and an example of how black women can achieve something in society ... and then it turns out she's white ... she's not really a good role model for black girls then, isn't she?

Yes, that makes total sense,l

step it suits the trans narrative that there is an immutable biological cause.

If there is a biological cause it seems more likely that it is to do with ante natal hormone exposure than sex based brain differences (for which there is currently zero evidence).

I've just read that 'It's a girl's dick thing'.

I feel revolted. I consider myself pretty open about most things, but essentially....even if you don't want a dick in you, you should consider a dick in you because I want to put my dick in you? And if you don't consider it, fuck you you're a transphobic reason for transwomen's deaths?

I mean, oh my god.

Felicia
It's absolutely fucking batshit crazy!!

felicia I take it you've just hit peak trans?

Yes, that's the argument. It sounds rather......male, doesn't it?

I keep posting this article but that's only because its brilliant and very relevant. It's by Adolph Reed Jr, he is a Senior Professor at UPenn, he argues that both race and gender social constructs.

www.commondreams.org/views/2015/06/15/jenner-dolezal-one-trans-good-other-not-so-much

hermione i think I reached it on the thread about prisons, this is the first time I've been able to verbalise it.

There is lots of evidence that the supposedly biological basis for race is at best very dubious. There are no human subspecies that can be distinguished genetically. There is as much variation within 'races' as there is between them and you can't look at someone's genes and say what race they are. Where differences do arise they are a result of peculiar environmental conditions that particular groups live in (e.g. High altitude) or result from cultural practices.

Sex differences, on the other hand, do have a biological basis.

The concepts of gender and race are firmly entrenched in society though and are caught up in inequitable power relations (because what could better cement a claim to power than basing it in your supposed biological superiority?).

It's all absolute crap and has dreadful effects in the world, which makes it the consequences of trying to push s gender essentialist perspective so dangerous. And even more worrying, trying to claim anyone who thinks this might be problematic will be 'on the wrong side of history', which we are increasingly told.

On the link just above I don't wholly agree with him.

1. Some people lie or have a mental illness which means they think and say they are Jesus Christ or reincarnated XYZ.

Obviously a lie is a lie.

1. Others say something which is true - I identify as black is accurate. I am black is unlikely to be so in her case. Or I am a trans woman or I always felt female but grew up in a male body.
2. I agree that race is fairly fluid for many of us. I am about 3% Neanderthal NDA. Most people in Africa have none. But on the whole we are all mixtures of all kinds of genes and dividing us neatly into groups doesn't work too well in many cases. However not doing so can also be wrong - medicine needs a lot more research on effect of medicines on children, on men v women, on different races and the fact it has not been specific enough has damaged people. So they are not straight forward issues.

I couldn't care less if men who aren't even trans want to go around saying they are female as it is not likely to have much impact on most of us. In fact it might make it easier to force them to scrub the floors at home and spend 4 hours up in the night holding the screaming baby.

deo I think you missed the point, who gets to decide what is authentic and what is a lie, it is a lie that men are women regardless of how they identify.

It depends on context and law. If the law allows you to change gender and you give your new gender as female then you aren't lying. If someone says have you had gender surgery and you say you haven't when you have that's a lie although most lies are not a criminal offence of course.

Lovers have always misled each other sadly since the beginning of time so people should always try to check things out before they get too embroiled with a potential partner.

Yes, it's the difference between a lie and a delusion. Some of the more extreme trans rantings seem to come from delusion (and probably a lot of other mental health issues) rather than deliberate lying.

I think using law as a point of reference is misleading, lots of bizarre things have been legal; slavery, rape and discrimination to name a few.

The context is a misogynistic society which socialises certain behaviors as feminine and masculine.

I'm not sure people can check it out Deo, it's something I'be always wondered about. You can get your passport and birth certificate changed. So even if you 'checked everything out' it's quite likely that it would check out okay. It's not uncommon to for trans people to start life in a new gender in a new place and without family contact. And of course their medical history is confidential.

I do wonder if in years to come we're going to hear of people in long term marriages who've been deceived. And I know some people would say you shouldn't care, but that's a pretty big deception.

Deo you can't lie about physical body parts. A surgically constructed vagina is not the same as a 'natural' vagina, and the same is true about a penis. They just aren't the same. Someone would have to be very inexperienced and uneducated to be deceived on a long term basis.
And that's before all the other give away signs, or just the general 'sense' that that a person isn't the sex they are presented as.
A similar example is how people are able to identify gay men just from photos, at a higher rate than coincidence (I know transgenderism and homosexuality are 2 different things). Human beings are very good at reading faces, expressions, body language, without even being aware of it.
What I find surprising is how people are happy to have sex with people they barely know while being blindfolded, or without seeing them naked or touching each other. That's how they are being fooled.

I'm not sure that's true. I've looked at pictures of teams vaginas, and also at blogs with pictures of 'real vaginas' (the sort of site for women to see what other women's vaginas look like. There really are such a wide variety of ways that a vagina can look, nothing is 'normal', so, tbh, I really can see some people being hoodwinked.

ottothedog
There isnt really any special thing you have to do to declare yourself transgender just as you can self declare race in the uk. To change your gender on your birth certificate you need a diagnosis but dont need any treatment, hormones, surgery or counselling. Conversely, you can be treated as the opposite sex by public institutions such as the prison service without having a gender certificate for that gender, but by getting a boob job.

What proportion of transgender people in the UK self declare but don't access any medical or therapeutic help? The GRC (for which you have to have lived at least 2 years in your 'acquired gender' and express a lifelong intention to do so) is a requirement in the UK for being admitted to a prison matching identity rather than birth sex. I wonder what your prison service claim is based on - I'm only aware of one recent case involving a prison swap and no GRC, but it wasn't based on 'getting a boob job'.

TheXxed
I think using law as a point of reference is misleading, lots of bizarre things have been legal; slavery, rape and discrimination to name a few.

The examples you give are not good comparators for transgenderism. For me, it's no more bizarre a concept than accepting diversity in human sexual orientation and practices. Why should people be rigidly categorised according to their (apparent) birth sex, any more than e.g. men or women should be expected to conform to gender expectations?

Why should people be rigidly categorised according to their (apparent) birth sex

Because one sex class tends to enact violence on the other one.

I am just writing here about the dating perspective but some people check things more than others. I have never gone to bed with a man without lots of talking, checking etc. You hear about how their childhood was even schools (in my private school world as for some of us that's a useful filter - private schools or not and they tend to be single sex so if she says she went to a known girls' school you can be pretty sure she wasn't a man in the past). I am not saying it's all possible to check and some people want very casual sex, blindfolds without seeing the person first (in one of those deception cases) etc. That is not very wise. I have even done a companies house search on some men as it's free. That sometimes gives you date of birth. I have only once bought divorce/marriage certs but yes I'v done that - nosy parket that I am, so if "she" was married to a woman when she was 21 or when she was a company director aged 25 she was a he that can help.

I certainly favour treating chldren and adults in a gender neutral way.

I also think the studies on exposure to hormones in the womb which may also affect who is gay or not are worth looking at in terms of differences between us all although hate that might be so as yet again it's a weapon to beat pregnant women up against - woman as cause of problems or whatever - ever thus.

I suspect not many people are being misled when dating to be honest despite the two recent cases. Most people can tell by looking at the 5 foot 10 ex man that they are trans and they will either fancy them or not. There is a massive difference between whom you fancy and whom you will treat well and fairly in life. Sexual attraction does not have to coincide with treating everyone fairly and equally. I hope I would never consciously discriminate against anyone in a work or life context and treat everyone with respect but when it comes to who you find sexually attractive that cannot be the same kind of thing. It is not wrong only to want a man who is taller than you are or not to want one who is very disabled (although I did go on one dinner date with a man in a wheel chair so am pretty inclusive and open) or you prefer dark hair to ginger or whatever.

I knew a guy in Thailand who was very disturbed after having sex with a woman realising she was not always a woman as in his words her smartie tube felt different we all knew so was a little at his shock the next day.

I have only seen one trans woman that would not raise suspicions but that was on a TV interview if I meet them I think I would pick up that something wasn't right and by that I don't mean being a trans woman is wrong but I would pick up their is something different

I was talking about using the law as a point of reference not as a comparison to transgenderism

But now I think about it the comprisons stand up, slavery, rape and discrimination were legal because of thoughts based not on facts or evidence but societal norms. Women were property, black people weren't human and disabled people weren't human in a meaningful sense. There is no evidence for a male or female brain yet the law is willing to accept this because the law is not based on empirical evidence but reflects the thoughts and views of society (or those who hold power)

Asian males tend to be smaller in physique and have softer facial features than Caucasian males so many Asian trans women look extremely feminine and may not be detectable to people who don't live in Asia/see a lot of Asian people regularly.
Sadly for white trans women their physiology often looks male regardless of hormonal changes, wide shoulders, narrow hips, big jaws etc.