Feeling black vs feeling female

[CherryPicking]

Rachel Dolezal caused huge offence by claiming to be of African American descent. Not questioning why that's offensive, but if she sincerely identifies with black culture more than her own, how is she different from a man who 'feels' female? Why should the second example be less offensive to members of the oppressed group in question? Not saying I'm in any way offended by men who 'feel' female or identify as trans but just wondering why I'm more accepting of that then I would be someone like RD? Is it social conditioning or is there another reason?

I've just had a chance to have a read of the everyday feminism article about reproductive justice. What I found really striking was that there was no mention of trans men having the opportunity to harvest their eggs and the responsibility of the repro justice movement to look in to that too?
Also totally baffled by the references to 'getting pregnant'? Is that like when smug couples say 'we're pregnant'?

fem its complete narcissism. When you read these articles, the mental health issues just scream out at you.

I believe the argument for male bodied trans women not having to find other male bodied TW sexually acceptable is that it would be too "triggering" for them

Interesting. But on the other hand, genderists claim that penises in women's refuges isn't triggering to rape victims. Because transwomen's penises are female. Or something.

I've just had a chance to have a read of the everyday feminism article about reproductive justice. What I found really striking was that there was no mention of trans men having the opportunity to harvest their eggs and the responsibility of the repro justice movement to look in to that too?

I find it arrogant and shitty to demand the use of real women's bodies (what else would they need to store sperm for? They can't get pregnant by themselves.) and call it "reproductive justice" while women next door are still denied the right to decide what happens to their own bodies.

Nobody has said that gay men should be having sex with female bodied trans men (there's no term for it, there's no discussion of it) - as ever Wasn't that the issue when Owen spat his dummy? Him out of the Guardian.

Yes, and Owen still goes on about how he was victimised by all the nasty feminists. Cry me a fucking river!

I think there has been the odd transman who has felt entitled to date a gay man, but I think the difference is that men (straight and gay) don't have any problem telling the transperson to fuck off.
As regards the everyday feminism site, it's shit and got very little to do with actual feminism (not a real expert on feminist websites though).

I've just read the Everyday Feminism/Reproductive justice article.

I had to write down a cheat sheet of genders/gametes/presumed surrogates. I am not quick enough to process the setups at the moment.

Also totally baffled by the references to 'getting pregnant'?

...and this completely threw me.

femfortheday
I've just had a chance to have a read of the everyday feminism article about reproductive justice. What I found really striking was that there was no mention of trans men having the opportunity to harvest their eggs and the responsibility of the repro justice movement to look in to that too?

I wouldn't expect a (trans)woman to champion the rights of (trans)men in a feminist publication. I don't see an issue with a person who is transgender who hopes, and makes plans, to have a child biologically theirs - a pretty common and universal dream - or referring to getting pregnant.

Re the OP's question: I think there's very little comparison to be made between the case of Rachel Dolezal and those who are transgender, unless the latter also involves a complex web of identity deception. The two recent cases of women (one now in the process of transitioning), who pretended to be men to have sexual relationships with women unaware of their identities, might be relevant to the debate (although oddly the title of the thread is: 'Feeling black vs Feeling female', thereby inviting comparisons with transwomen rather than transmen).

In terms of the identity Rachel Dolezal adopted, I presume it didn't involve accessing medical advice, procedures, counselling and the upheaval and challenges that I would generally expect being transgender to entail. If anything, it sounds like RD's identity was pretty easily assumed and accepted. I'd also guess that her psychological wellbeing pre identity change would not be equivalent to that of somebody desperate to identify as a different sex/gender.

Yes, those two cases are fascinating. What do you consent to in sex?
If someone says he is 17 years younger than he is and you have sex is that illegal? If she says she's 45 when she's 50 is that illegal? If the sex toy is not the one you thought it was is that illegal?

If you sleep with him because you think his friend's country mansion and borrowed Aston Martin is his is that illegal deception? If he has herpes or HIV - well yes that is illegal if not disclosed. If he thought the breasts were natural as she said they were but in fact they were silicone has she illegally misled him?

Fascicle, you say "In terms of the identity Rachel Dolezal adopted, I presume it didn't involve accessing medical advice, procedures, counselling and the upheaval and challenges that I would generally expect being transgender to entail. If anything, it sounds like RD's identity was pretty easily assumed and accepted. I'd also guess that her psychological wellbeing pre identity change would not be equivalent to that of somebody desperate to identify as a different sex/gender. "

There isnt really any special thing you have to do to declare yourself transgender just as you can self declare race in the uk. To change your gender on your birth certificate you need a diagnosis but dont need any treatment, hormones, surgery or counselling. Conversely, you can be treated as the opposite sex by public institutions such as the prison service without having a gender certificate for that gender, but by getting a boob job. I dont see why a person with racial dysphoria would be any less or more psychologically traumatised than a person with gender dysphoria personally?

On the subject of consent, it brings to mind the undercover police officers who had long term relationships with, even children with, women they were paid to spy on. I have always thought that should be seen as a type of rape

If you think of sex like a contract (which it's not but bear with me) anything that breaks a 'material term' would be something that should be disclosed.

If I know this man wouldn't want to have sex if I was; born a man, was HIV+, have a Porsche, then I shouldn't have sex knowing that I have either lied or excluded a material term. If it's stuff like I said a was a Virgo but was actually a Scorpio, then it's not a material term.

Those Police Officers knew the women wouldn't have had sex if they knew; should be prosecuted.

Consent needs to be taught, insisted on and thought of in a very different way. The 'fuck yes' or 'fuck no' system. Either someone is enthusiastically consenting to exactly what you are suggesting, or not. If not; don't touch someone. I don't see why this is hard.

if she didnt use her claim to be in a high position then it wouldnt of been so bad.
I dont care what people what me to call them as long as it isnt rude, who am i to question

The consent issues are fascinating as my list of possiblities shows. The other example is a woman who "forgets" to let her prospective husband know she is pregnant or he doesn't let on he has two families already.

So there may be cases of ordinary fraud - money stolen. There is no longer a legal claim for breach of promise of marriage which we had 100 years ago in English law or earlier. If he says his penis is 6 inches and its tiny is that actionable? Where do we draw our lines? If someone is in the police and undercover does that make the sex non consensual? if it does is that any different from where the man says he isn't married and he is?

People bring the question of marriage up in regards to consent, and it is a grey area.
Consent on the grounds of biological sex/genitals isn't though.
Hopefully though, people do talk and learn from cases like this. We can no longer expect people to be honest about their biological sex, their genitals, etc etc. Don't put yourself in positions of vulnerability such as being blindfolded by a virtual stranger, or allow yourself to be penetrated by anything without at least looking at it first.
I understand that sounds like victim blaming but I don't think women (well people generally) can afford to be naive about sex anymore.

I understand that sounds like victim blaming but I don't think women (well people generally) can afford to be naive about sex anymore.

If we are to promote what is safest for women, then we should tell women to not ever be alone with men, to never enter relationships with men, and to never trust anything a man says.

But those who suggest it are usually called "man haters" by everyone, including those who will blame a woman for not spotting a rapist at ten miles distance.

There ought to be some protection by the law if we are supposed to live normal lives.

That sounds very sensible. What one person thinks is normal sex another things is weird or morally wrong. You have to check in advance.

vestalvirgin most women would choose to be alone with men at some point. It's probably best for them to be aware that some men are predators (and some women too,apparently) . That doesn't mean there also shouldn't be a protection in law as well.

I don't understand transgender at all. If gender is a social construct, how can you feel like the wrong gender?
Surely it's just reinforcing gender stereotypes?

Also there is an actual difference biologically between a man and a woman, as opposed to having different amounts of melanin.

If gender is a social construct, how can you feel like the wrong gender?
Surely it's just reinforcing gender stereotypes?

Well, yes. That's it. You are totally right.

However, according to the translobby, gender is real, while sex is a social construct.

I know, it doesn't make sense, but that's what they say.

Also there is an actual difference biologically between a man and a woman, as opposed to having different amounts of melanin.

Well, yes. That's why it is so vital to patriarchy to continue to oppress women, and take away all that feminism has achieved, while oppressing black people is going out of fashion.

A white man doesn't care if his work is done for him by a black man or a similarly badly paid white man, or a machine, but he can only reproduce by using a woman's body, as a man's body just won't work.

And that's why men like the transgender stuff, while they are not overly invested in defending Rachel Dolezal. (Not to mention that the latter promoted the rights of black people, not those of transblack (i.e. white) people.)

I agree Vestal

I might be misunderstanding this aspect as well, but I also don't get how RD has 'profited' by saying she is black?
Surely she got to where she was by her own hard work and dedication? Or would she not have been able to be involved in black civil rights issues as a white person?
It seems quite divisive to say that only black people can be advocates for the rights of black people, social issues like this need the support of the whole of society surely?
Akin to feminism and equality only being able to work if both men and women recognise and strive to achieve it.
Or maybe I'm just being naive?

Wow, just when I thought I'd heard it all, along comes 'the cotton celiling'.

gloria yes, because if we buy into the nonsense that sex is sociallly constructed and gender is real, then lesbians would find male bodied Transwomen sexually acceptable partners, and they don't. This shows the argument is fundamentally flawed so lesbians must be bullied into sex with men to keep the lie alive.

@Timri: I think I read somewhere that she got a scholarship for black women or something.
But you have a point, she did do a lot of work to get there, too.

Black people might feel that a black person should be in the position Dolezal occupied.
I mean, if you have this great person, and everyone thinks she's great, and an example of how black women can achieve something in society ... and then it turns out she's white ... she's not really a good role model for black girls then, isn't she?

On the other hand, she avoided doing what men in the feminist movement sometimes do, namely using her privilege to climb to a higher position. (Not that I think that was why she pretended to be black, but it is interesting with regard to your point that white people should be able to advocate for black people.)