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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Feeling black vs feeling female

214 replies

CherryPicking · 14/12/2015 12:25

Rachel Dolezal caused huge offence by claiming to be of African American descent. Not questioning why that's offensive, but if she sincerely identifies with black culture more than her own, how is she different from a man who 'feels' female? Why should the second example be less offensive to members of the oppressed group in question? Not saying I'm in any way offended by men who 'feel' female or identify as trans but just wondering why I'm more accepting of that then I would be someone like RD? Is it social conditioning or is there another reason?

OP posts:
ShortcutButton · 15/12/2015 07:27

boo its interesting about that research. Although I don't think its applicable as a reason why people find RD more offensive than TG stance; because mostly people don't know about it when expressing those views.

That is not the trans narrative. We are to believe that they are the opposite sex

Would love to hear some trans views on that research

OneMoreCasualty · 15/12/2015 07:49

"But in the case of RD I think it's pretty hard to argue that a similar biological basis could be found for what she did. "

Booyaka, I doubt that there is such a basis, but any studies done on trans people and hormone receptors etc have been done because there is a sufficient population. There are too few "trans race" people to be definitive about the outcome of any such studies.

Trans women may not claim to have given birth etc but there are some references made by some that they were a woman/girl when they did certain things in the past (pre transitioning)

OneMoreCasualty · 15/12/2015 07:57

I will also add this narrative from a MTF who talks about banking sperm prior to HRT but then becoming pregnant with sperm - the biological fact of this is that the banked sperm would be used to create a foetus to grow in the womb of a surrogate or female partner, but this MTF person would apparently consider that to be her pregnancy.

everydayfeminism.com/2015/11/trans-women-reproductive-justice/

Post surgical bleeding has also been described by some trans women as a period.

Are these lies?

OneMoreCasualty · 15/12/2015 07:58

I will also add this narrative from a MTF who talks about banking sperm prior to HRT but then becoming pregnant with sperm:

everydayfeminism.com/2015/11/trans-women-reproductive-justice/

I understand that a few trans women describe post-surgical bleeding as a period.

Are these lies?

OneMoreCasualty · 15/12/2015 08:12

Oops, double post!

Racism, homophobia, ableism - countering these doesn't involve us denying that the person in front of us is black, gay or disabled, but treating them fairly and equally with a white, straight or able-bodied person, or indeed any other person.

To not be transphobic, for some, we must treat a trans person equally (absolutely right and proper), and also agree that their self identification overcomes biological reality even when that impacts on those born XX - that their place on the women's basketball team when a foot taller than any other player is fair, say, or that they are fairly matched to wrestlers born XX and if such wrestlers refuse to fight them for fear of harm, that's transphobic.

ObsidianBlackbirdMcNight · 15/12/2015 08:12

Lots of trans people live 'stealth' or 'deep stealth' ie they claim to have always been the sex they present as. Is that not lying?

ObsidianBlackbirdMcNight · 15/12/2015 08:17

And that lesbians who refuse to have sex with them are transphobic
transgenderreality.com/2015/11/20/its-a-girls-dick/

DeoGratias · 15/12/2015 08:20

I don't think the analogy works.
The white US lady who said she was black lied if she said that. If instead she said she was brought up with 5 black adopted siblings which I think she was and lived in black culture and felt black then that would be true.

Trans people who differ a huge amount (see my Times article reference to all the intersex types above) some will have male or female organs or a mixture, some will feel male but look female and vice versa and all kinds. It is so complex it is hard to generalise.

If I not being trans called myself a man tomorrow that would be a lie. It would not be illegal in many contexts of course and nor would ilt be illegal in the UK if I put on a burka and went out pretending to be a fundamentalist islamic woman. We can all present as we choose within the law.

However we do seem to get away in the UK with a lot more anti-women and sexist comments than we do discriminatory comments against blacks etc. Sexism is worse tha racism in the UK in my view.

OneMoreCasualty · 15/12/2015 08:26

"Sexism is worse tha racism in the UK in my view."

I agree with this although since I am a white woman I may be judging by personal experience.

But Deo, please be aware that very few trans people are also biologically intersex and I understand many intersex people do not want to be co opted into trans issues.

CrayonShavings · 15/12/2015 08:27

Del trans and intersex are two completely different things.

If you hopped on a ferry to the Republic of Ireland and said you were a man, that would make you a man, thanks to a new law.

CrayonShavings · 15/12/2015 08:29

*Deo

DeoGratias · 15/12/2015 08:30

Yes, that's true and the Times article made that clear too. I was just trying to say there are lots of different kinds of trans and intersex people.

I don't see why MN gets so bothered about this issue. There are not that many trans people around and they don't get in our face or stop women's rights or force us all to wear high heels and make up or steal our jobs or stop women lobbying for better fairer rights at work so can't we just let them get on with calling themselves whatever they like as long as it is not an illegal lie?

OneMoreCasualty · 15/12/2015 08:33

There have been two recent cases relating to trans women in jails that impact on the rights of born women, Deo.

slicedfinger · 15/12/2015 08:40

Not relating to the trans comparison, but there is a letter in the Guardian today suggesting that if she had done it in the UK, there would be no doubt about it being acceptable, because she identified as, and was accepted by others as black. Therefore under uk race laws, is recognised as being black if that is what she wants. Interesting that the social constructedness is recognised here, but not there.

DeoGratias · 15/12/2015 09:06

Yes, you can hardly miss the outrage of women on MN about the jails issue which is hardly worth worrying about at all.

ShortcutButton · 15/12/2015 09:07

How do these people not understand the issue feminists have with them????

Its INSANE

I don't want trans women 'centred' on reproductive justice

originalmavis · 15/12/2015 09:09

She lied about her background and made up stories about her life growing up and of racism (possibly even sent herself racist hate mail).

ShortcutButton · 15/12/2015 09:10

Why is it not worth worrying about men being housed with women in jail deo?

ObsidianBlackbirdMcNight · 15/12/2015 09:11

Once she started presenting and passing as a black woman she probably did experience racism

originalmavis · 15/12/2015 09:15

But there was doubt over the cases she highlighted of racism as to whether it was something she made up.

femfortheday · 15/12/2015 09:24

It's an issue because, once again, male bodied people are trying to redraw female bodied people's boundaries.

And the fair comparison would be if RD claimed that any discussion of her birth as a white woman was an act of violence, racist and literally causing the deaths of transracial people.

Theydontknowweknowtheyknow · 15/12/2015 09:28

I feel sorry for her. It's perfectly feasible to identify strongly with another culture, with their history, their music, etc. I understand she did a fair bit of good for black rights, so it's really a shame she had to lie to get where she did.

mamadoc · 15/12/2015 09:34

I see transracial and transgender as exactly the same issue of dysmorphia. Your biology not matching the social role you want to play in our society. Sad that you would need to lie or have surgery because societal conditioning is so strong.

In actual fact it should be even clearer that transgender is not biologically driven than transracial as sex is binary whereas race is not. You can be mixed race but not mixed sex (barring very rare intersex conditions).

There are some biological differences between races on a spectrum eg proportions of slow vs fast twitch muscle fibres that make black people better sprinters. These do not define black and white in a unitary way though like having ovaries or having testes.

I can believe that there is some subtle variance in testosterone levels within men and women on a spectrum in a similar way but it does not define being male or being female that is a chromosome determined binary thing.

You can't say that having a slightly lower testosterone level is a biological driver of 'feeling like a woman' unless having more melatonin or more fast twitch muscle fibres is a driver to 'feel black'.

I recall there was a lot of debate when Barack Obama became the first black president because technically he is mixed race. He is usually defined by himself and others as black but genetically he is as white as he is black. The argument came down to the fact that he defines himself as black and has been treated by society as black so that is his lived experience. It goes to show that race is a social construct if it turns out to be about self definition and experience. I don't condone Rachel Dolzeal's lies but how black would she have to be for it be Ok to claim it? If she had one black grandparent would that have been better?

Similarly I read an interview with Antonio Banderas about how he argued with a US border guard as being Spanish he had ticked a white European box on a form but in the US he was Hispanic which is a racial subgroup we hardly even recognise in Europe. Someone else was trying to define his ethnicity for him and it changed as he moved around the world. That has to be the very definition of a social construct.

Sex is a binary biological reality
Skin colour is a biological reality but a spectrum one
Gender and race are both social constructs
We should be fighting for people not to be defined by their race or gender and to have equal possibilities
We should have sympathy for those who are suffering or discriminated against because they don't fit the societal norm but we don't have to believe in female brains or being born in the wrong body to do that.

Theydontknowweknowtheyknow · 15/12/2015 09:35

And i don't really care about CJ being a woman. What pisses me off is the way he picks and chooses the bits he wants. He associates womanhood with picking out dresses and speaks in patronising terms about us, like he's in a tampon commercial.

My sympathies lie with transgender people who just get on with their lives, aren't millionaires and have a real affinity with what being a woman today is actually like, not a glamped up Vogue version of it.

Pangurban1 · 15/12/2015 10:50

Really good clear post, Mama.

Probably autocorrect, but it is melanin, not melatonin, which is responsible for skin colour. Of course, all human skin cells will produce more melanin on exposure to sunlight/uv radiation. Melanin is a great protection from skin cancer as it reduces ultraviolet induced DNA damage.

As someone with type 1 skin, I wish I had more of it as I have experienced uv induced skin damage. I think some people take melatonin to aid sleep if they are changing time zones.