Y1 Teacher Refused to let DS go to the toilet, resulting in sitting in mess all day.

[FreeSpirit89]

My mum picked DS1 aged 5 up from school Friday afternoon (3.15pm), He was clearly distressed, and upset. When she got him beyond the school gates he told her he had messy pants on. He said he had asked to go to the toilet before first break (10.30am) and the teacher had said no, he couldn't hold it any longer and messed his pants.

The school is aware that DS has bowel problems, they have letters on file from his consultant specialist at the hospital as well as the family GP, and myself explaining that he needs to be able to have access to water at all times, and due to his condition he may not have much warning that he needs to go to the toilet, and it tends to leak out of him fairly quickly.

His bottom was red raw, and little sores have appeared at the top of his bum crack due to being made to sit in his own mess all day. He is quite upset, and doesn't want to go back to school because he thinks it will happen again.

Im planning on approaching the school head about this on Monday, but i am at a loss at how to do so? The head's default reaction to anything where the parent isn't there to witness the incident is that the child may be lying. I want to go prepared and not get to angry, which at the moment i'm struggling with. I just cant believe that they have treated this issue with no sensitivity and ignore my sons pleas for the toilet.

Any idea's how i can get them to listen and ensure this doesn't happen again would be greatly appreciated.

Well said Wombat. A voice of reason.

CandODad - the school will be in full cover up and deflect blame mode.

That's what happens in situations like this. Don't be naive.

handin very clearly never had a child with bowels issues. She has no clue of what is or isn't possible.

Those who are saying, it could have happened right at the end of the school day, there is no way that 5mins in soiled pants will give way to sores. You are talking about hours there even if this child has a vey sensitive skin.

This is dickensian. Young children - and 5 is very very young- should be allowed to use the toilet as and when they think they need to.

Nobody, of any age, should have to ask permission to use the toilet. Think about that for a moment.

Stuff whether that would mean kids trooping back and forth to the loo ten times a day. So bloody what. They won't do it if it's a total non-event.

And they should have access to water at all times. This is 21st century Europe ffs.

Yes I totally believe that your ds would have asked, it sounded like he was aware of his condition, and the importance of asking. The bottom line is that he came home with soiled clothes and sores on his bottom, which should not have happened, and he was refused the toilet when asked. Op needs to have a meeting with the teacher and HT, to establish what happned that young child was left in such a state. Reassurances that this will never happen again. If a parent had delivered the child to school in such a state, and the child had told the teacher that the parent refused the child the toilet and had not cleaned him up, then this would trigger a safeguarding alert.

OP, I hope your negative previous experiences don't stop you going in to have a conversation based on a 'finding out what happened' approach, rather than a guns blazing, demanding retribution approach, because the former will be more productive. If you are feeling negative about the school, especially if you are vocal about it, that may also contribute to your son feeling negative about it. He is a 5 year old who will need to go to that school until there is another place, so being as openly positive with him about everything, however you personally feel about the school, is probably helpful for helping him feel more positive.

Clearly, your relationship with the school has broken and down and you are waiting for a new place. I hope that you get it soon. And I hope too that you are able to have a better relationship with the new school. Clear, open and positive communication always helps and a spirit of working together. Contrary to what one or two posters seem to think, schools are not the enemy. Occasionally awful things do happen (and this might be one of them) but seeing schools as all part of some big conspiracy does sound like paranoia.

Aeroflotgirl - excellent point.

If I had done that to my child I would undoubtedly be investigated and indeed a school would be duty bound to report it.

Wombat - you re no doubt referring to me.

I do not believe for one moment schools are involved in a conspiracy but when things go wrong then the public sector has a strong tendency to try to avoid accepting blame rather than deal act to deal with the issue.

The evidence from recent public sector failures then compounded by failure to deal with the issues is on my side

Aeroflotgirl "I totally believe that your son would have asked"

......but we simply don't know, do we. We don't know the boy and even if we did, we couldn't be 100% sure about what a 5 year old might do in a particular situation. The OP herself isn't sure of whether he told the teacher he had 'skidded' or didn't.

The whole point is that, from an internet thread,we really can't know what happened. The OP doesn't know exactly what happened. That is why a fact finding visit is vital.

I don't assume the school was in the wrong or that they weren't. It is the leaping to judgements about this, without full information that I find bizarre.

I think everyone agrees that the school needs to know the lad came home dirty and sore. Beyond that, it is difficult to say more until more facts come to light.

I'm sorry to hear this. It must have been very distressing for your son.
I'd book an urgent appointment with the head. Say to her that you have a concern and then relay the details you have outlined above (including medical details). Then say what you would like to happen in the future ie that your son needs to be able to go to the loo whenever he requires it. Wait for her response. If it isn't acceptable to you say that you would like to make a formal complaint and request the complaints procedure. Try and be factual and not angry if you can as it will be more hard hitting. I hope it goes well and Monday morning isn't too tough getting your son to school..

I'd be livid. An accident is one thing. They happen. I'd be upset about it, but they do happen.

Making him sit in his own mess is unforgivable. There is no fucking way she couldn't have known. Shit smells, it's pretty hard to miss. At the very least they could have called you to bring him clean clothes. At the very least.

I'd be getting a lawyer to cowtail them having a meeting, along with a doctor's note, and a slip of paper detailing what accommodations he needs for his medical condition.

I'd want to know what they're going to do going forward to make it up to him. The feckless teacher owes him a damn good apology.

Free worker , but you seem to start from the point that the school MUST be in the wrong and be definitely guilty of refusing permission to go the loo, not noticing the boy had an accident for close to 6 hours and will definitely try to cover it up, requiring action from a parent to 'ruin the career of the teacher'.

Reaching this verdict based on SOME incidents of public sector cover-ups (and what about all the times when problems have been dealt with fully and appropriately) suggests a rather unbalanced view of both this case and schools in general to me.

I think this is an absolute disgrace especially when your DS's medical condition is noted. You should see the Head and demand an apology and guarantee this will not happen again. And agree with copy to the governors and to LA. That is inexcusable.

And now we have the view that teacher DELIBERATELY left him sat in the mess for hours and the teacher is feckless.

Is there enough evidence to say these things for sure??

I hope some of you guys would want more evidence before convicting, if you ever find yourselves part of a real jury and having an influence over the future of someone!

Is there enough evidence to say these things for sure??

The fact that he sat in his own mess is the evidence. Unless this kid has master the art of having scentless poo.

She knows he has bowel problems, he even has clean clothes at the school just in case. With that information she should have checked on him before he got sores on his bottom. So she either neglected to check on a child with a known medical condition, or she simply didn't care enough to make him change.

In either case she owes him an apology and the school owes the mother reassurance this won't happen again and what steps they intend to take to ensure that.

Certainly there was an issue that day, with the little boy coming home in poo. Certainly it needs raising with the school and questions asked and answered. AFTER this has happened, apologies and further action may well be necessary, but it is too soon to say,min such a categoric and definite way that some posters are.

, there are too many leaps and assumptions made by some posters, resulting in calling the teacher feckless and stating that the teacher deliberately left him in poo for hours.

Just perhaps, it will turn out that the little lad pooed at the end of the day. Just perhaps it will turn out that he doesn't really know the difference between 10am in the morning and 3pm? Just perhaps he said he asked to go, but actually didn't, but just had an accident and then felt a bit embarrassed and tried to deflect attention?

Shouldn't we establish the answers to these questions before pronouncing judgement of guilty and then passing sentence?

I'm off now, because I have made my point.

OP, I hope you are able to go to school on Monday expecting to have a useful conversation and that you get it. And I hope your little lad is able to enjoy the final week and all the festivities. And I hope you soon have a new school and can foster good relations with the staff there.

"...they’re now expected to clean up crap."

No the teacher just has to allow the child to use the toilet!

That being said, I feel desperately sorry for teachers these days. Not only do they have to keep huge classes under control with half their powers of discipline taken away, they’re now expected to clean up crap.

This I believe, sadly, is the underlying reason why it so difficult for lots of children with additional needs. Many teachers do not truly believe in inclusion or even, frustratingly, making reasonable adjustments. They do not believe managing additional needs is part of their 'remit'.

The thing is when you consider the agegroup of children being talked about here, these needs are not particularly beyond what would be considered the norm. With small children toilet accidents are frequent, they only need to get ill within the school day and control is that much more challenging.

Yes, teaching holds many challenges but please do not make this a reason to blame a small child or hold their parent in suspicion for this situation the OP has described. The teacher here does hold decision making power. They can decide to read his file and follow the professional recommendations and actually allow the child access to the loo!

FreeSpirit - one thing occurs to me. Apologies in advance for asking a rather horrible question, but when your mum got your do home and cleaned him up, was the poo fresh or dried on?

If it was really fresh looking, that would suggest that he might have been mistaken about when it happened - but if it was well dried on (as I suspect it was), that would suggest he'd been sitting in it for a long time.

I suspect that he wouldn't have got sores if it had happened shortly before home time - that is my opinion as a trained nurse. I think that someone with healthy young skin has to sit in faeces for quite some time, in order to develop sores.

Young children - and 5 is very very young- should be allowed to use the toilet as and when they think they need to. Nobody, of any age, should have to ask permission to use the toilet

Hahaha. Did you not read the earlier post from the person who was a Brownie leader? Clearly you know nothing about the way 30 young children can find it HILARIOUS to keep going to the toilet every time there is anything to be done that they don't fancy doing.

If every time I sit them all down on the carpet and say right today we're going to do some Maths / Phonics / Writing and then they all get up and bugger off to the toilet, is that ok? And when we get to the end of the school year and your child has made no progress because he / she has been going to the toilet every 5 minutes (and most likely messing about in there, splashing water etc) is that ok? Are you going to say "that's fine teacher that he cant count / read / write - the main thing is he's been able to go to the toilet whenever her wanted?!" And when the school fails OFSTED because the results are terrible because the kids have missed all the key teaching cos they've been allowed to keep wandering off to the loo, is that going to be ok with the parents?

Hand is right, teaching these days really is becoming impossible. We cant ever do anything right.

hollie but this child had a note in his file concerning a bowel condition.

I believe in inclusion, of course I do. But teachers are there to teach your child. They're not care assistants or cleaners. If a child has additional needs, they should be statemented and the appropriate help provided. It is not a teacher's job to clean up your child's poo and it beggars belief that people seem to think it is.

And if this is a child who has accidents, then he needs to be taught to say exactly that so he can be helped by the appropriate people. He should not be saying that he's "skidded his pants" so the parents can blame the poor overstretched teacher when he hasn't told them properly that he's had an accident and needs to be cleaned up and they haven't realised. There should be no potential for ambiguity here.

I was responding to this comment from a previous poster, who was saying that ALL children should be able to use the toilet whenever they want: Young children - and 5 is very very young- should be allowed to use the toilet as and when they think they need to. Nobody, of any age, should have to ask permission to use the toilet.

ALL the teachers on this thread have said that if the child has a special condition then OF COURSE they would be allowed to go whenever they needed to. That is why its very hard to understand how this happened. The school obviously need to look into why.