Not to accept that my DD is 'really a boy'?

[Scootering]

This is actually about my DSD, who is nearly 18.

Over the last few months she has told us she is 'trans' and wants us to call her 'David' (not this name exactly...).

Her father and I (and her mother) think this is crazy. She has always been perfectly happy as a girl, long hair and dresses, not remotely tomboyish. This has all happened since she has met a group of very 'out' gay men and I think she really wants to be like them. Her idea of 'being a boy' is to be (frankly) a raving queen (very camp) with flowery shirts and pink hair.

We have NOT started to refer to her as 'our son' or called her 'him' or 'David'. She says we are ruining her life and will never accept her.

We have said we will not do these things until she has been through proper counselling to discuss this. We paid for her to start this but she gave it up after the first session because she 'knows who she is' and 'doesn't need to discuss it'.

So we are now at a impasse. She says we are ruining her life. We are really not remotely convinced we should be acting like she's a boy.

Are we being unreasonable? Are we torturing her? I'd really be grateful for advice because we are finding it all really embarassing and difficult (particularly with elderly parents).

scootering do you think its just something she is trying out ? you said it seems un authentic what will you tell the younger children i just think if you go with it for now and see how it pans out

Although I know my lesbian friend who found it incredibly difficult to come out at age 20 probably would have had an easier time now ...so maybe not all a bad thing

She might also have been told that she must be really a boy.

There are homophobic countries that allow "gender change surgery", as it is seen as a "cure" for homosexuality.

Men do not accept women as human. They also do not accept transmen as human.

Jesus Christ! I'm sorry, Vestal Virgin, but you clearly have a very different understanding and experience of people (men and women) to me!

What a weird, bitter, twisted outlook! I actually feel quite sorry for you.

I guess I'd take a slightly different approach - treat it as a name change primarily.

LOADS of people I know chose their own new name somewhere between the ages of 16 and 21 or so. Either because they hated their old name, or didn't like their parents, or they just felt more like a "Holly" than a "Michelle" or whatever. I know a couple of girls who changed to either gender-neutral names or full on "James" type usually boy's names. They've all stuck with it in private life, not sure how many have done it by deed poll or at work.

So on that basis, I would totally go along with "Dave" being called "Dave" rather than Charlotte or whatever. It's really not that much of a faff particularly for someone you see every day, you soon set a new habit. On the pronouns - I know everyone gets very het up about pronouns but I would be sticking to a neutral "they" because if she does decide to let this all wash over her in a few months or years time it'll be easier - you can just leave them as they are.

I doubt your younger kids will really care that much, and the less faff you make about it the less of a big deal it'll seem to them. Don't you remember friends coming into school and announcing they'll be known as Princess Pennyfeather or whatever from now on? Children love picking new names and I would bet they'll take to your eldest's new name quick enough.

What a weird, bitter, twisted outlook! I actually feel quite sorry for you.

Thanks. Please consider becoming a feminist to help me form a more favourable opinion of men.
You see, if they didn't mansplain and condescend to me, girlfriendzone me and deny me autonomy over my own body, I might have a different worldview.

Please consider becoming a feminist to help me form a more favourable opinion of men

I am a feminist, and I happen to know lots of great, interesting, thoughtful men and a number of quite unpleasant women. Someone's sex doesn't define their character.

^Thanks. Please consider becoming a feminist to help me form a more favourable opinion of men.
You see, if they didn't mansplain and condescend to me, girlfriendzone me and deny me autonomy over my own body, I might have a different worldview.*

It's comments like this that make people think feminists are all raving man haters. Please don't label your opinion as a feminist one. It's far more extreme than that.

I haven't read the whole thread, but will later as it will be really useful for me, I think.

One of my DDs has started to say she is transgender. She hasn't asked me to address her as "he" or by a new name. We have changed the spelling of her nickname a bit, at her request, and I guess it is fairly gender neutral.

We have been to CAHMS and she was assessed as not being fixed enough in her desire to be male for any kind of therapy. (Which felt like a relief, actually.)

She has always been a bit of an outsider, and not one of the "in" crowd, but now in senior school, she has found friends who are more alternative.

I think it's more that she identifies with transgender people, rather than identifying as male, if that make sense.

It does worry me that some of my feminist pronouncements like, "girls are only more emotionally mature than boys because society expects them to be" have given her the idea that it's better to be male than female. Perhaps I should overcompensate by being more positive about the good bits of being female!

It's comments like this that make people think feminists are all raving man haters. Please don't label your opinion as a feminist one. It's far more extreme than that.

I was not aware one could be "extreme" in wanting equal rights for women.

Either two kinds of people get to have equally nice lives, or they don't.

So, your feminism is about women getting a quarter of the cake instead of only crumbs, while men get the rest of the cake, and my feminism is about women getting half of the cake?

Okay then.

If it is any consolation, as a GP, I see a teenager like this once or twice a year. We talk things through; I encourage them to discuss with their family & friends if they feel able and, if they want further info, to contact The Beaumont Society, then come back to see me if they are still experiencing feelings of gender dysphoria. To date, none of them has come back. IME, they are quite different from patients who give a clear history of strong feelings of gender dysphoria from an early age.

I agree with all PPs advising you not to make a big deal of this.

I was not aware one could be "extreme" in wanting equal rights for women.

Wanting equal rights for women is not the same as saying men don't see women as human.

I was not aware one could be "extreme" in wanting equal rights for women.

No, but maintaining an irrational fear and hatred for half the population probably does qualify as extreme in most people's book.

Why did you suggest family therapy rather than counselling just for her? The latter seems more appropriate.

You say you have brought the DC up that "gender is crap" but are reacting pretty badly to this and making judgments about how boys and men - and people who you regard as "genuine" in wanting to identify as a different gender - should dress and behave, eg you seem to think it's not OK to be camp and "attention-seeking".

You don't do children a favour by brainwashing them into that whole "girls like pink and boys like blue, and if a girl likes blue, she must be really a boy inside" nonsense

This. It's ok for girls to prefer boys' clothes and haircuts, even if they are not 'tomboys', whatever that means. 'Girly' girls can also like climbing trees or playing with boys, and grow up into women who like hanging out with the lads. It is no reason to take the child to the GP and get them started on gender-reassignment counselling with a view to hormone treatment and surgery.

It's ok for a girl to dress and act like a camp gay man (whatever that means) and prefer being called 'David'. I'd be fine with that. Wanting to dress weirdly and defy social norms is not necessarily a mental health issue. Unless there are other indicators of mental distress - I agree with the pp who asked what else is going on in your dd's life?

sanity your Dd is of an age where she is developing outside of your influence you didnt cause her damage by not hyping up girls enough

VestalVirgin

It's because of feminists like yourself that I never label myself one. You give the rest of them a bad name with such a stereotypical, negative view of men. For there to be equal rights for women, we have to treat others as equals - even if they have a history of not doing the same for us.

It does worry me that some of my feminist pronouncements like, "girls are only more emotionally mature than boys because society expects them to be" have given her the idea that it's better to be male than female. Perhaps I should overcompensate by being more positive about the good bits of being female!

Perhaps, yes. Or you could focus less on combating gender stereotyping and more on combating oppression.
Like in "Even IF girls were more emotionally mature, that wouldn't mean you should have to babysit boys your age - they can sort their own problems out."

There is no need to tell her that girls are not better than boys - enough people do that already.

It's because of feminists like yourself that I never label myself one.

I think it is more because you don't actually do anything feminist. You seem opposed to pointing out that women are oppressed not by some invisible power, but by men, so I cannot imagine how you would get anything feminist done.

It's quite telling that your whole objection to your child's choices are the effects on everyone else in the family. Try having a bit of empathy for your child, follow their wishes and be a bit supportive.

How old are the younger children?

I think that someone who is nearly 18, nearly an adult, absolutely does have a responsibility to younger siblings around the ideas those children form around gender just as they do around racism.

You have to consider the wellbeing of everyone, not just the teenager.

If David considers that family members are ruining David's life, then David would benefit from a CAHMS appointment whether that statement is true or not. CAMHS can work out if David needs individual or family therapy.

I would agree to respect name and pronoun changes, and try and find ways that didn't involve David feeling rejected. But it sounds to me as if David has more of a focus on friends than family life right now anyway. I think you'd have to provide more support if David was at home and isolated from peers.

some of the same posters suggest that a FtM will never be fully 'accepted' by men, while simultaneously making the point that MtF are not women and should not be accepted into female 'safe spaces'!

That sounds pretty consistent to me. Where is the doublespeak that you speak of?

I really don't understand this site. It's so PC, feminist, Corbyn loving, left wing - yet every time a trans thread comes up there's a worrying amount of small-mindedness about it all. It's a phase, it's over-hyped in the media, it's attention seeking, oh if were all just genderless asexuals then this wouldn't be a problem, it's because of men for some reason, etc.

That would be down to Mumsnet having more than about 3 members. However many Mumsnet memes there may be, I think you can agree that we're not a hive mind.

*some of the same posters suggest that a FtM will never be fully 'accepted' by men, while simultaneously making the point that MtF are not women and should not be accepted into female 'safe spaces'!

That sounds pretty consistent to me. Where is the doublespeak that you speak of?*

Because the first point is condemned, while the second is lauded. It's hyporictical in the extreme.

I'm not ignorant about oppression, Vestal, but I refuse to blame all men for it either. We are coming out of hundreds of years of men being in control - total equality won't happen overnight. I don't let myself become consumed by anger over history though, or speak so badly about half the human population. Such negative feelings and resentment will never move society forward. That will only happen when we accept each other and our differences - whether we are women, men or anything inbetween, without thinking we are better or our 'rights' are more important. I don't do anything for feminisism because I'm not one in my mind - I do make my voice heard for equality, for everyone. I don't have an personal agenda for just one group.

At the moment she does want to go down the surgical route although she hasn't actually taken any steps to do that.

We have said we will not do these things until she has been through proper counselling to discuss this. We paid for her to start this but she gave it up after the first session because she 'knows who she is' and 'doesn't need to discuss it'.

So we are now at a impasse. She says we are ruining her life. We are really not remotely convinced we should be acting like she's a boy.

Well if she does want to go down the surgical route, she needs to accept the following:

1. People close to her WILL struggle to accept it. Part of the counselling for being transgendered is about learning how OTHER PEOPLE will react to their decision and then in turn how they can cope with that. Families will fine this the hardest for a variety of reasons, even if they are generally supportive.

2. By refusing to go to counselling she is being unfair to you and she is also in denial about things. Instead acting like its all your fault and you are ruining her life is frankly childish and demonstrates that she is not ready to undergo the next stages involved in changing her body. She will get no further unless she is willing to engage with counselling, as this is what doctors will get her to do.

3. Beware the suicide rate. Engage as much as you possibly can even if its against your preferences. Make it clear she needs clear lines of support - which includes not just you, but also support groups and her friends. She needs to go to counselling as this is a good channel to seek that kind of support on an ongoing basis even if she is fine now. She may not be in the future.

4. I don't give a fuck how liberal people claim they are or the cliché 'well she's still your child, you should love regardless'. That is the comment of someone who has not dealt with it in their own family. It is far more complex than that. Comparing it to coming out as gay is also a naive and ignorant remark. Its not remotely similar.

It DOES have an impact on siblings, whether people want to admit it or not. Much of our own identity growing up, is based on our position in the family and how socially we are conditions with regard to what boys and girls do and how siblings interact with each other; eg eldest daughter/sister, one of a brother/sister pairing, youngest sister out of four boys, middle child etc etc.

When someone decides they are going to rewrite that, it rewrites some of the identity of the other children in the family group. This is why I loathe comments you get on the likes on MN as it is a group completely unfamiliar with the impact it has on the wider family. Older relatives do really struggle with it too and that can be difficult for members of the core family group to deal with.

5. The idea of blame and 'why'. From other extended family members, from other children, from yourself.

YOU may need to get counselling and advice too. Not seek help on MN. Its the wrong place and you may find yourself getting upset and hurt. Everyone has an opinion here - that's fine - but what you need is people with proper experience and understanding. That includes a space where you are safe to get angry/upset and say politically incorrect stuff whilst you come to terms with things yourself.

You are ALLOWED to do this. In fact you NEED to do this to be any use to your child.

6. It is common for transgender people to reject their own families, as well as families to reject their transgender relative. This goes back to this shared history and identities being defined by genders. Families are the biggest reminders of the past. Rejection is a two way street in this.

Seek out a support group if you can. You need to sit down as a family and talk about how you are ALL going to deal with this, as it will effect everyone and everyone needs support. It is NOT all about her and she needs to get that through her head or she will start to feel like everyone else has it in for her and doesn't accept her. Its not just about her knowing who she is. That's only part of it. Its also about other people knowing who she is and her understanding how other people might struggle with that even if they don't see being transgender as a bad thing and still totally love her regardless.

Just calling her David will not help any of you. You need ALL be in a position where you can talk about difficult subjects without someone taking exception and getting offended if you are going to be able to give each other support. Your questions come from your fears that come out of love. Being able to answer difficult questions in a mature way rather than getting upset about it and taking it as a rejection, are essential will ultimately benefit all.

Good luck, as whether this is a phase or a life long decision, you need to take it seriously and think about the implications and how everyone's reactions have consequences to someone else in the family. Tackling it as a unit rather than individuals is the way to go.

There is no 'right' way to handle this. Plenty of ones that are better than others, but acknowledging that everyone - herself included - is going to have fuck ups along the way as you adjust, is the best advice I can give. Learning to forgive is key.