Not to accept that my DD is 'really a boy'?

[Scootering]

This is actually about my DSD, who is nearly 18.

Over the last few months she has told us she is 'trans' and wants us to call her 'David' (not this name exactly...).

Her father and I (and her mother) think this is crazy. She has always been perfectly happy as a girl, long hair and dresses, not remotely tomboyish. This has all happened since she has met a group of very 'out' gay men and I think she really wants to be like them. Her idea of 'being a boy' is to be (frankly) a raving queen (very camp) with flowery shirts and pink hair.

We have NOT started to refer to her as 'our son' or called her 'him' or 'David'. She says we are ruining her life and will never accept her.

We have said we will not do these things until she has been through proper counselling to discuss this. We paid for her to start this but she gave it up after the first session because she 'knows who she is' and 'doesn't need to discuss it'.

So we are now at a impasse. She says we are ruining her life. We are really not remotely convinced we should be acting like she's a boy.

Are we being unreasonable? Are we torturing her? I'd really be grateful for advice because we are finding it all really embarassing and difficult (particularly with elderly parents).

Because the first point is condemned, while the second is lauded. It's hyporictical in the extreme.

What?

"Men will still harass you when you identify as male, as they will still see that you are actually female" - This is not criticism of men still seeing a transman as female, it is criticism of how men treat women in the first place.
If you don't see this, you shouldn't label yourself a feminist.

"MtF are not women and should not be accepted into female "safe" spaces"

This is also criticism of male violence against women, and how MtF want to remove some of the few protections women have against male violence.

It is very consistent.

What age are the younger children? My youngest dd is 6, she understands what trans is without knowing the name. A little boy at their school is transitioning and living as a girl now. Hes always felt he was a girl. He performed in the school play last year and he was very, very camp. As it turns out he's always identified with being a girl.

Obviously it was talk of the school and so I explained it to my daughter. I just said you know how some ladys go out with men but some men go out with men and some ladys go out with ladys. Well some people are born and even though they have a girls or boys body, they feel like they should of been the other. So they then dress like a boy/girl and act like they are etc. She didn't question it really. We also watched one of the 'i am can't episodes about Bruce jenners transition.

It hobestly wasnt a big deal for her. Young children just accept things.

I don't think it's criticised - more just observing that FtMs may hope to be accepted as men but it's unlikely to happen.

You could turn it round and say "Men expect to be totally accepted as a woman by women if they choose to transition MtF, but don't extend that courtesy to MtFs."

I think the point is a double-standard exists, and it's unfair to expect women to have an attitude that men don't have. And FWIW I don't think I've once heard a FtM trans person kick up a massive fuss about not being totally accepted as a man in every possible sphere.

Vestal, it's 'logic' like yours that allows Islamic extremists to justify murdering 'infidels' for centuries of 'oppresion' and/or Israel's occupation of Palestine.

If so, I trust you won't be too peeved should any of your loved ones be blown to bits as a result of them benefitting from centuries of western imperialism? After all, there's nothing extreme about pathological hatred is there?

*cait

She was also told at school that when older he will be given medication and an operation that will make his body like that of a woman's.

ouryve - Perhaps not a hive mind, but it is consistant for being 'equal rights' and certainly most people here don't like stereotyping/boxing in people in terms of their gender. Boys in dresses, girls playing football, I am who I am attitude all around - but god forbid that one gender wants to completly switch and live wholly as the other, then it's a phase or even mental health issue.

People with seriously at-risk children really struggle to get mental health support. Services are stretched. We don't help by dragging our daughters to the doctor because they want to wear weird clothes and be called a 'boy's' name.

Ugh, I'm glad my dd has a name that could be a girl or boy even though it's usually a girl's name (like Hilary). She likes role-playing as boys, not girls - so, Harry Potter, Peter Pan, Legolas etc. All her dress-up costumes are boy characters. And no, I won't be taking her to the GP to start counselling to find out whether deep down she really wants to be a boy or a trans. She's very girly (dances ballet and loves the tutus) but HATES Disney princesses and Barbie. But this is not a sign of gender confusion. It's not necessary to fit preferences into a 'gender' box.

Also, dd identifies with puppies and small dogs. It's like she thinks they're her kin. Maybe she's otherkin

OP. this sounds incredibly hard for all of you. I think there is just so much confusion out there and choice about all sorts of things, everything, from health/ food to TV channels/ entertainment/ internet to sexuality/ gender. No wonder there are so many mental health problems - we were not designed for this amount of choice in all aspects of life.

If I were you, I would try and think through "How would I react now if I knew in 10 years time 'she' is still a male, and happy this way, had the surgery etc.?" and "How would I react/ behave now if I knew this was all going to be over in a couple of years/ a year?". Only you know DSD's character. If you support her now, will she feel that you let her down, and did not guide her enough and just went along with her immaturity? Or will she appreciate that you tried...?

Personally if it were my kid, I would say, Let's wait a little while before we do all the changing names/ pronouns. We are willing, but we just want to see it's what you really want...is it ok with you if we wait 6 months? Also get her to tell GP's. Have some good chats about how she knows, when it started and really listen to her answers.

Excellent post, RedToothBrush.

I spent a couple of years of dating girls, including a serious relationship where i lived with a girlfriend for a year, and fell out with my family spectacularly over it. I was unsure about my sexuality and thought i might be gay. I also think I was very influenced by my friendship group at the time.

What didn't help was my families reaction - calling me a "dirty lesbian", refusing to speak to me etc. In the end, it was just a phase for me and i returned to relationships with men. But the family fallout caused a lot of angst all round and deep inside i still havent forgiven some people. If they'd just been relaxed and gone along with it, it would have been easier for everyone (and in the end they got what they wanted anyway).

I know its not the same, but just thought i'd share. She may well change her mind about all this later on, but by making it a big deal now i think you'll make it worse in the long run. Although i do understand its very difficult.

Wow. I never knew we were doing feminism wrong, all this time

I agree with young children do accept things.over a Decade ago dd asked mummy whats a poof she had heard it at school after i had said poof isnt a very nice word I just said sometimes men love men that was it

Kawliga, she's not being 'dragged' to the doctors because she wants to wear 'weird' clothes or be called a 'boys' name.

It is being suggested she goes because a. she believes she is trans (not the same as the above and b. she is unhappy about some elements of her life.

Haven't RTFT but I feel like you're making it all about you OP for all you know (s)he has struggled with this for a long time and just put on a happy face and only just feels comfortable now exploring his(her) feelings.

I haven't told my DC that girls are not better than boys, Vestal. I've told them society treats women unfairly.

Thanks for the flowers, MrsJayy. I don't actually think I caused DD's feelings of being trans. I just worry sometimes people hear the bad more than they hear the good.

Whoops OP, your hypocrisy is showing.

If gender doesn't mean anything then it doesn't matter what gender your children feel they are.

Or does gender not matter, just as long as they conform to what you feel are satisfactory gender stereotypes?

Call him David and carry on as normal. The world will not end, I promise you.

I think the point is a double-standard exists, and it's unfair to expect women to have an attitude that men don't have. And FWIW I don't think I've once heard a FtM trans person kick up a massive fuss about not being totally accepted as a man in every possible sphere.

Actually, I once read a FtM trans person talking about how "he" doesn't know if "he" can discuss the rape "he" was subjected to and the abortion that became necessary because of this, as it could be seen as "making it all about the men." And as a good feminist ally, "he" doesn't want to do that.

Now compare this to MtFs who whine that abortions shouldn't be considered a feminist issue because "not all women have uteruses".

Very sorry this is happening for your dsd and for your family.

In your shoes I would seek some help and advice from a gender questioning source. There is a Facebook group called 'Discussing gender critical & gender identity' but they are a USA group so may not have many UK leads. But worth a look, maybe.

I don't quite know what I would do, but my gut feeling is to try and make it less of an issue, avoid sex or gender-related names and pronouns all you can. Things like talking directly to her and saying you/your.

Hopefully if this is all about the group of gay boys she is friends with if she finds that they still view her as a girl, this may help her to see that she is indeed a girl.

I know there are genuine trans kids, but I think they often present as such very early.

Try and find some fun non-'gendered' things to do, build good rapport, if she wants to tell her siblings or her grandparents that she is a boy, I would let her go ahead, you can't stop her. but you will be able to explain the younger children what you think is possibly going on here.

Grandparents can sort themselves out, either they will roll their eyes or smile and when she is out of earshot ask, 'What!?'

I think the really important thing is to keep a good and positive relationship with her.

I don't know much. But I have cousins (4 boys, 1 girl) and the girl is lesbian. My aunt has said that it was harder for her husband than for her to accept. My cousins have in one case said they feel sorrow that she won't walk down the aisle and the other lad who I'd be closer to is convinced she can be 'turned back' (can't think of another way of saying it)

Personally, if my dd, I'd probably stupidly hope it was a phase. Not that I have an issue with trans, moreso that I suspect a lot of hardship will follow. But, if dd was adamant, I would support her 100%.

I'm sorry, but a young child might be accepting. But that young child is still growing up, learning their identity and how they fit into the world and comparing themselves to others.

At some point they will come up against prejudice and they need to learn how to deal with that.

Also, do not underestimate how hard it is to answer the question 'Do you have any brothers and sisters?' Its fine if you don't have to hesitate over the answer. You don't get it. How you answer and at what point do you discuss your family dynamics with others is difficult. Its not as simple as 'telling the truth'. Saying something to 'the wrong person' at the 'wrong time' leads to a billion and one other questions that you may not want to answer or simply can't. The 'wrong person' need not be someone with prejudices or a bad person in anyway too. They can be over sympathetic or even pitying. They can be over interested and nosy. They can be tripping over themselves to not offend (When actually you might want to confide in someone how your trans sibling is having a negative impact on the rest of your family in some way and perhaps want to vent that they are being a self centred twat. You know bitching like all siblings do. Except that if they are trans then is 'not cool' to get pissed off at self obsession and subsequent behaviour as you 'have to' be understanding of their problems and ignore how it might be devastating to another family member).

The issue is other people don't understand and struggle to comprehend it through ignorance. Its such an innocent question, but one you can come to dread as its a minefield to navigate.

If you have a trans sibling, you do not have a brother/sister and then have a sister/brother. Because its not that simple. You have to worry about the safety of your sibling and whether they might be the victim of violence. You have to worry about whether they will be one of the ones who takes their own life. You might have to deal with the jealously they might harbour towards you for being born right when they weren't. Amongst other things.

In short, you take on some of the baggage of your sibling and you have to deal with it too. Hence why I say, and stress so much, that the whole family goes through the change together. The change defines your family dynamics as much as whether someone is male/female.

I'm sorry, but a young child might be accepting. But that young child is still growing up, learning their identity and how they fit into the world and comparing themselves to others.

At some point they will come up against prejudice and they need to learn how to deal with that.

Also, do not underestimate how hard it is to answer the question 'Do you have any brothers and sisters?' Its fine if you don't have to hesitate over the answer. You don't get it. How you answer and at what point do you discuss your family dynamics with others is difficult. Its not as simple as 'telling the truth'. Saying something to 'the wrong person' at the 'wrong time' leads to a billion and one other questions that you may not want to answer or simply can't. The 'wrong person' need not be someone with prejudices or a bad person in anyway too. They can be over sympathetic or even pitying. They can be over interested and nosy. They can be tripping over themselves to not offend (When actually you might want to confide in someone how your trans sibling is having a negative impact on the rest of your family in some way and perhaps want to vent that they are being a self centred twat. You know bitching like all siblings do. Except that if they are trans then is 'not cool' to get pissed off at self obsession and subsequent behaviour as you 'have to' be understanding of their problems and ignore how it might be devastating to another family member).

The issue is other people don't understand and struggle to comprehend it through ignorance. Its such an innocent question, but one you can come to dread as its a minefield to navigate.

If you have a trans sibling, you do not have a brother/sister and then have a sister/brother. Because its not that simple. You have to worry about the safety of your sibling and whether they might be the victim of violence. You have to worry about whether they will be one of the ones who takes their own life. You might have to deal with the jealously they might harbour towards you for being born right when they weren't. Amongst other things.

In short, you take on some of the baggage of your sibling and you have to deal with it too. Hence why I say, and stress so much, that the whole family goes through the change together. The change defines your family dynamics as much as whether someone is male/female.

Honestly, it really isn't a big deal for him to identify as male, live that way for a while, see how it fits.

It really isn't.

How you react to this is going to be a huge decider in whether he comes to you in the future with whatever problems.

The younger ones will cope, the grandparents will be accepting, or not, that's their choice.

The world won't end if he tries out living as David for a while.

I have been there, done that and come out the other side with my dc, we had a 2 year 'phase'. It wasn't easy at points, but I'm so glad that my dc had my support and our relationship is fantastic now.

Why is having a 'fantastic' relationship with a trans/former trans young person seen as being really important while other, younger children should just have to 'cope?'

This kind of narrative of the trans child becoming the centre of attention in a family seems to play out over and over again.

Everyone's feelings and experiences should be treated as important in a family.

They didn't just cope, they didn't flutter an eyelash to be honest, just accepted things and got on with being supportive.

It wasn't an issue that came up on a daily or even weekly basis at all so there was no being centre of attention for anyone, it was what it was and we were and still are a supportive family.

How about:

1. You respect David's wishes about name and pronouns etc. You explain it to close people, once, politely. Future mistakes are on that are politely , kindly and firmly corrected. You don;t get drawn into long argument sor conversations about it. "It's David's decision not mine or yours" should cover it with anyone who tries to inveigle you.
2. There are requirements ( time periods living as the desired gender) that need to be met before hormones and surgery in the UK. It will be necessary for David to talk to people about what they want on that pathway,perhaps even look a certain way, so you might want to mention that counselling might be a helpful preparation for that process. But I think you're on a losing wicket making something that you and your DH "require". That makes counselling something that is a barrier, not something that could be genuinely helpful in making the transition or finding another path.