Not to accept that my DD is 'really a boy'?

[Scootering]

This is actually about my DSD, who is nearly 18.

Over the last few months she has told us she is 'trans' and wants us to call her 'David' (not this name exactly...).

Her father and I (and her mother) think this is crazy. She has always been perfectly happy as a girl, long hair and dresses, not remotely tomboyish. This has all happened since she has met a group of very 'out' gay men and I think she really wants to be like them. Her idea of 'being a boy' is to be (frankly) a raving queen (very camp) with flowery shirts and pink hair.

We have NOT started to refer to her as 'our son' or called her 'him' or 'David'. She says we are ruining her life and will never accept her.

We have said we will not do these things until she has been through proper counselling to discuss this. We paid for her to start this but she gave it up after the first session because she 'knows who she is' and 'doesn't need to discuss it'.

So we are now at a impasse. She says we are ruining her life. We are really not remotely convinced we should be acting like she's a boy.

Are we being unreasonable? Are we torturing her? I'd really be grateful for advice because we are finding it all really embarassing and difficult (particularly with elderly parents).

we are a very gender critical family and would get into real difficulty if asked what does feeling like a girl mean and why can't X just be a boy who likes wearing make up and skirts.

My answer would be: "Because people are stupid and will more easily accept that X is a girl than that X is a boy who likes make up and skirts"

I wouldn't be too sure that she will automatically get counselling before being prescribed hormones. According to a trans woman who regularly posts on here, that's not actually the case and counselling is not really available for trans people on the NHS.

The real worry is that some teenagers do buy T off the internet. Would be good to have someone who she trusts explaining how dangerous this is.

Why not just indulge him/her? As others have suggested, it may be a teenage fad, like veganism, but it may be something more. You seem to be basing yoru reaction on what you want, but what about what he/she wants?

"When I've brought them up to believe that gender is crap?"
If you've truly brought your children up to believe that gender is crap - if you truly believe it yourself - then it shouldn't matter if a person decides that they want to be a different one. Because gender isn't the important thing about them.

OP I'd humour him/her for now. Say that you will use male pronouns and call him David on the understanding that he is completely patient if you and especially his younger siblings forget sometimes or in the case of small children, all the time, as it's a sudden adjustment and lots of the way we talk to close family is instinctive, so you need time to learn.

Then just listen. It's impossible to know whether s/he's started hanging out with these gay men because s/he feels more able to discuss gender fluidity with them l or whether she's just trying this on for size. I know someone similar to what you describe - calls himself a boy but looks like a pretty, skirt wearing, long haired girl.

Long term, whatever the gender, it's still the same person you have always loved inside the skin. I would far rather encounter this sort of teenage personality crisis than have a child self harming or turning to drugs which is so worrying for their long term health.

I can see this will be difficult for you to get used to. I think the worry about your younger DC is a bit of a red herring - children are very adaptable and would get used to a new status quo pretty quickly as long as you're on board with it.

However, I have to say that telling another person who they are or how they feel is very, very arrogant. Whether you think another person is 'tomboyish' a 'raging queen' or any other not very nice labels you may want to apply, will not change they way they feel about their own identity, although it may make them feel a bit shit and quite angry and resentful towards you.

Your opinion in this is not really relevant. Support or don't support and live with the consequences.

Scootering -it is an awful time when you are trying to get your head around something that while wonderful for your DSD, but alien to you.

I have a trans-son and I went through the whole myriad of emotions, like you at the beginning.

I would say your DSD's gay friends haven't influenced her as such but maybe have given her the strength to express feelings she has been battling with.

With her being nearly 18, she will soon be able to do as she pleases, and therefore you have 2 choices here.

1. Continue to dismiss her feelings, and risk alienating her and losing her for many years probably for ever.

2. Acknowledge to her that you are struggling with this, but that you want her to be happy in whatever form she feels she needs to be, but that you feel you both need professional help to work out the best next move & future moves.

It may well be "a phase", it may be she is just confused or rebelling against you and her Dad, but she is sorting out in her head and needs your unconditional love & support, and the distance to sort it out for herself.

Be honest with the younger siblings, that its a difficult time but that DSD is sorting out what she wants in life.

Whether David or Davina she is still your DSD & in need of your love even if you don't understand it and her father & mother & you need to have a united front.

Very difficult for you all, do get outside help to work it all out it makes a difference. PM me if you want to chat further my heart goes to you.
Hugs to you all.

If gender isn't a thing why do we have gender specific pronouns or gender specific names. If gender is irrelevant then why not call him David as he wishes. If gender does matter then respect his wishes and call him David.

For the younger DCs, I'd present "David" as a nickname that their sister would like them to use. To her, I'd say you'll use the name she'd prefer, but it's a bit much to expect younger siblings to remember to use different pronouns, whereas "Kate would like to be called David as that's what her friends are calling her" is easier.

I would also suggest she doesn't change her official name until she's finished all education, it's a lot easier to have all your certificates in one name.

Then perhaps if she's always been a 'girly girl', see if you can introduce her to some very positive strong female role models, if she sees 'girly and a bit useless' or "man" as the options, she might well be rebelling from being expected to be very feminine and needs some examples of how to be happy as a woman who's a bit more masculine.

See, Dawn, it's attitudes like yours that causes issues with young people and them feeling like they cannot be themselves. It's not a trend to be transgender just because it's more spoken about these days. I imagne this is was how people spoke all those years ago, when homosexuality became more prevalent, 'oh you know these gays are getting far more screen time - giving young men silly ideas that they grow out of'. My friend is on treatment without counselling by the way, that comes when you ask for full surgery. He's much happier as a person, 'playing' at being a girl all those years was exhausting and nearly drove him to suicide. Saying things like 'She can't be a boy any more than she can be a seahorse' is just plain ignorant. Really hope it's not several decades before opinions like this start getting phased out, like it did with being gay.

If you've truly brought your children up to believe that gender is crap - if you truly believe it yourself - then it shouldn't matter if a person decides that they want to be a different one. Because gender isn't the important thing about them.

The problem is that transitioners often don't acknowledge that what they change is their gender, not their sex.
That's the confusing part.

Im not generalising but it can be a teen fad of course there is wider implications but with the likes of Ruby Rose being trans or gender fluid is accepted and trendy (not the right word) and something teens might experiment with i am probably wrong saying that
but i do think David needs to understand they cant just demand granny will understand .

I can't think of a better way of teaching children that 'gender isn't a thing' than by showing them how small a thing it is to take a new name and pronoun.

You're not going to win a gender theory argument against someone who cares enough to decide they're trans. He'll have done his research. If he wants to be a 'raving queen', that's a legitimate male role. What sort of behaviour is masculine enough, anyway? My DP has long hair, is very vain, loves shopping and make up, but no one ever questions whether he's masculine enough (I think it's the beard).

As far as explaining to children and grandparents goes, you don't have to give more of an explanation than it's what he wants. You might be surprised, though. My grandmother was telling me recently that her neighbour, who she's always known as a man, has just started wearing women's clothes, so she dropped by with some advice on what middle aged women ought to wear to the supermarket.

You don't have to agree with what he does, but you could make such a difference when life probably feels very chaotic by being there for David.

Could you call them David but still use the pronouns she/her. Maybe a compromise would be the way forward at this time.

Saying things like 'She can't be a boy any more than she can be a seahorse' is just plain ignorant.

No, it is plain basic biology. Dawn talks about sex as biological reality, not as role in society.

So that's ok? Pointing out 'well they will never really and truly be a boy' is helpful in these sort of situations? Or does is just perpetute the idea that being trans is something 'bad' or 'silly'?

Your DC is almost an adult, yet you're most concerned about how you explain it to other family members, ie how it reflects on you? How about honestly. Not dismissively, either, even if you do genuinely think your DC is being silly.

You might find it hard to deal with the idea of your child exploring their gender identity, but if you continue to find them ridiculous and belittle their thoughts and feelings, then you will lose them for good, whether as DD or as David. As it stands, the language you use to talk about your child oozes prejudice, both about your DC and your DC's friends.

I actually think Dawn is right and that trans is, strange as it may sound, quite trendy right now, especially on sites like Tumblr which really encourages teens to navel gaze and label every aspect of their identity and sexuality to a ridiculous degree.

I.e. The concepts of hetero/homo/bi/pan/demi sexuality and hetero/homo/bi/pan romantic. All new to me!

So in many ways, I think questioning one's gender is seen as an edgy and progressive thing to do, rather like a teen questioning their sexuality umpteen years ago.

The difference being, questioning your sexuality and changing your mind later is completely fine, whereas to pursue hormone treatment and surgery and then changing your mind later has lifelong consequences.

So I do sympathise with your skepticism OP. I don't know what the answer is.

She can't be a boy any more than she can be a seahorse

Some people would dispute that Google "otherkin" (another Tumblr trend).

So that's ok? Pointing out 'well they will never really and truly be a boy' is helpful in these sort of situations?

Yes, it is. It will save the girl from the disappointment that is sure to follow when she finds out that:

1. Men still don't treat her like human, because they are not fooled by her claims to be male.

2. Her body will, regardless of what she does, still be a female body, and if she gets her ovaries removed, she will have to take artificial hormones for the rest of her life - which is not the life men usually lead.

Some people seem to be rather confused about what modern medicine can, and cannot do. Modern medicine can do quite a lot, but it cannot change a person's sex.

@VagueIdeas: Actually, I think otherkin would agree that she can become a boy, just like they can become seahorses. Everything is possible! (Okay, maybe not. Maybe even otherkin acknowledge that they will not actually change their species, regardless of how much they try. At least those who want to be seahorses will have to admit defeat when they are not able to breathe underwater)

I don't think this is any different from any of the other issues that crop up with young adults trying to forge an identity for themselves. And you should treat it the same way.

If she wants to behave like an adult in control of her destiny, that means rights as well as responsibilities. That means she gets the right to be treated as a "he" if she takes responsibility for it: counseling, speaking with her siblings and grandparents (you have an issues with this, not her. She has to overcome these difficulties more than you do), doing what she needs to do to follow this through.

It will be arduous and a real test of whether she really means what she's saying. It sounds very much like she's being swayed by other people right now, at a time when she's feeling herself that she wants to stand on her own two feet. Maybe if she'd fallen in with a different crowd it would never have arisen.

Let her do what she needs to do, be there to advise when irreversible decisions need to be made, but let her get on with it. It will be her embarrassment of it ever comes to naught, her pride if this is really what she wants and goes through with it.

And please don't put the whole "but what will people say???!!!" thing on her. Not her problem, not her burden. It's yours. She's free to be whoever she needs to be.

Some people seem to be rather confused about what modern medicine can, and cannot do. Modern medicine can do quite a lot, but it cannot change a person's sex.

This.

So better to live in a personal hell rather than take hormones for the rest of your life, because real men are horrible creature, too neanderthal to accept trans men as one of their own . Trans people accept they cannot be 100% of their chosen gender, but it sure as hell seems better than living a lie to make society happy. At least on hormones, the person can face looking in the mirror and not despise wha they see.