Not to accept that my DD is 'really a boy'?

[Scootering]

This is actually about my DSD, who is nearly 18.

Over the last few months she has told us she is 'trans' and wants us to call her 'David' (not this name exactly...).

Her father and I (and her mother) think this is crazy. She has always been perfectly happy as a girl, long hair and dresses, not remotely tomboyish. This has all happened since she has met a group of very 'out' gay men and I think she really wants to be like them. Her idea of 'being a boy' is to be (frankly) a raving queen (very camp) with flowery shirts and pink hair.

We have NOT started to refer to her as 'our son' or called her 'him' or 'David'. She says we are ruining her life and will never accept her.

We have said we will not do these things until she has been through proper counselling to discuss this. We paid for her to start this but she gave it up after the first session because she 'knows who she is' and 'doesn't need to discuss it'.

So we are now at a impasse. She says we are ruining her life. We are really not remotely convinced we should be acting like she's a boy.

Are we being unreasonable? Are we torturing her? I'd really be grateful for advice because we are finding it all really embarassing and difficult (particularly with elderly parents).

Thank you for all your kind words.

Ironically about five years ago I used to work with a trans-organisation in equality stuff.... closed down now due to cuts. At the time I was totally cool about the whole thing, as it was medical intervention to prevent what was a life-long dissonance.

This new 'trans' stuff... it seems totally different. It's so 'in your face' and my house seems full of 'trans' teens cross-dressing and posting pictures of themselves on the internet. They don't seem to want to pass or live quietly in the opposite sex role. They want to be 'trans' which is a whole different thing to being 'a man' or 'a woman'.

I am still unconvinced. I have been supportive to the point of telling her we will love her whatever she chose etc. In all honestly, if she was dressing like a 'normal boy' I would have less of a problem with it. It's this 'drag queen' character she has created that is so maddening. It seems to be all about attention.

Yes, I think it is a mental health issue. That is why we were encouraging counselling.

If he is acting out for attention, then the stage will pass. If not, and they do transition - so fucking what. If it makes them happy then that is all that is needed.

Trans people accept they cannot be 100% of their chosen gender

I'm not so sure about that. There are plenty of loud and aggressive trans voices out there that will not entertain the idea that they are not their chosen gender.

At least on hormones, the person can face looking in the mirror and not despise wha they see.

I read something recently which said that gender dysphasia is the only type of dysphoria that isn't treated with therapy, but rather surgery and hormones. A person suffering from anorexia wouldn't be given assistance to get thinner, for example.

I found it very interesting.

Look, I honestly have nothing against any individual who wishes to change their gender, have surgery (or not), ask people to use new names or pronouns... it's all totally fine. I DO question how a person can know they want to change gender, without knowing what it feels like to "feel like a wo/man". I'll never understand that.

I meant dysphoria not dysphasia. FYAC.

This new 'trans' stuff... it seems totally different. It's so 'in your face' and my house seems full of 'trans' teens cross-dressing and posting pictures of themselves on the internet. They don't seem to want to pass or live quietly in the opposite sex role. They want to be 'trans' which is a whole different thing to being 'a man' or 'a woman'.

I think that there was a time when mostly people with body dysphoria sought to transition, while nowadays, men are "identifying" as women to push themselves into women-only spaces, and girls see transition as a way to escape patriarchal oppression.

I am still unconvinced. I have been supportive to the point of telling her we will love her whatever she chose etc. In all honestly, if she was dressing like a 'normal boy' I would have less of a problem with it. It's this 'drag queen' character she has created that is so maddening. It seems to be all about attention.

Why is this a problem? Attention-seeking behaviour, while annoying, is normal in teens.

A parent shouldn't support a teenager's decision to do something they don't agree with, but you can still love and support a child without agreeing with their every choice or decision. I'm surprised that there is such a consensus that you should go along with this. I would be tempted to suggest that no opinions about gender of DSD will be changed unless individual and family therapy is undertaken and a more understandable view than "I am a boy because I say I feel like a boy" is uncovered and communicated. I couldn't accept my child telling me that they feel like a boy without them explaining and being persuasive about what they mean by feeling like a boy.

What else is going on in D's life at the moment? At the age of almost 18 a teenager should be thinking about university or other further study or a job but I don't think you mention anywhere about whether D is still at school or is doing/planning anything else in life.

In other words, apart from wanting to be a boy, what else does D want to be - a student, a nurse, an actor, a writer, a retail assistant, a psychologist etc etc? As you rightly say, gender should not stop him/her from being any thing in life career-wise so it can be a separate discussion. Is it possible that D is having difficulty making other life choices and so is focussing too much on this choice that s/he has made? I'm just wondering whether talking to D in the round about all other aspects of his/her life will make it easier to discuss the gender thing more effectively.

I have found this thread fascinating, my neighbours daughter has spoken out to her parents about this just this weekend, saying she know wants to be known as he and has given them her desires name. It's almost become the new trend. I know that makes me sound horrendously discriminatory and judgemental, but I'm honestly not.

Does your DSD understand the gravitas of her words? Transitioning is not something that is done by a sudden change of clothes or hair style. It's deciding to live the life you need, because you no longer want to be apart of the body you were born into. It's a huge huge thing to say, let alone do. Has there ever been any mention of this as DSD was growing up?

Perhaps look online for some good documentaries to watch with her, see if you can try and talk to someone online or in real life who is apart of the transgender community.

By doing these things together you will get a greater measure of whether this is for attention or a greater need to be who she feels she really is.

There does seem to be a big uptick in this recently (or at the very least, an uptick in discussing it online, anyway).

A post above struck me though, that some women might be "using" this dialogue as a way of lashing out at the staggering inequality between the sexes that they are noticing as they grow into adulthood.

I don't mean the 7 year old girl who has always felt like a boy, but a young woman who has always been completely comfortable with her own femininity who suddenly realises that she will probably never be treated with the same professional respect as a man, will probably never earn as much as a man, will never NOT be asked "Oh, who's babysitting tonight, then?" when she goes out without her husband etc. etc.

The dialogue about trans that has opened up online in the last couple of years might offer another way to respond to this disappointment (although this digression, if it exists, is probably not helpful for young women who ARE in fact transgendered), and VestalVirgin makes a really interesting point that I have never considered before, that men probably STILL won't treat her as an equal if she transitions.

Either way, I think that her feelings are still 100% valid, no matter what the underlying motivation, and that Scootering should still offer her as much support as humanly possible. Counselling would still be really helpful in helping "David" unpick what is going on in her head and body, and move forward healthily and happily whether as a man or a woman.

Some teenagers do go through this shreiking look at me phase and if you dont look at me i will shriek some more till you do look at me im not belittiling teens but this scene is quite popular atm dd has a few fb friends who are trans or gender fluid and she seems to understand it better than I do. If you think there is some mental health issues see what her mum and dad think so you are all on the same page and maybe try some of your own contacts to see if there is any support around.

DecaffCoffeeAndRollupsPlease : Family therapy was exactly what we wanted her to do, but she says there is 'nothing to discuss'.

ButtonMoon she has never mentioned this before, which is odd as there are two (non-blood related) family members who have transitioned from male-to-female. We don't see them often but it's not a massive thing. The reason this does feel like a massive thing is because it feels very un-authentic.

I would call her 'David' and try and remember to use the chosen pronouns, but that woupd be as far as it goes. I agree with vestalvirgin , it is most likely to be teenage attention seeking and specialsnowflake-ism. Personally I've got no time for that shit, which my kids are well aware of.
In the unlikely event of her having genuine gender dysphoria I would do anything to help her get the appropiate therapy.

Either way, I think that her feelings are still 100% valid, no matter what the underlying motivation, and that Scootering should still offer her as much support as humanly possible. Counselling would still be really helpful in helping "David" unpick what is going on in her head and body, and move forward healthily and happily whether as a man or a woman.

The problem with that is that many counselors nowadays are quick to suggest transition as solution, as they don't want to seem "transphobic" by treating it as a mental issue.

I'd suggest just giving her as much attention as possible, but NOT connecting this attention to her "gender representation". Call her David if this is necessary for a normal conversation.
Just talking to her about everyday things, etc. Basically, show her that she can be loved and respected as a girl/woman.

It seems incredibly ironic that some posters on here seem to think girls might want to transition to 'escape the patriarchy' but that when boys who want to do the same, it must be for some unspoken sinister motivation.

Also, some of the same posters suggest that a FtM will never be fully 'accepted' by men, while simultaneously making the point that MtF are not women and should not be accepted into female 'safe spaces'!

Absolutely bonkers double-think all round!

A person suffering from anorexia wouldn't be given assistance to get thinner, for example.

Of course not - that would kill them, unlike starting a transition where taking hormones would not. That's a pretty weak argument for 'try counselling first'. Doctors don't just throw medication at people who come out trans, they have to live their life as their chosen gender, put up with the difficulties that comes with that (especially without the medication to help, painful binding, trying to disguise your voice - anyone who wasn't serious would give up pretty quickly).

I really don't understand this site. It's so PC, feminist, Corbyn loving, left wing - yet every time a trans thread comes up there's a worrying amount of small-mindedness about it all. It's a phase, it's over-hyped in the media, it's attention seeking, oh if were all just genderless asexuals then this wouldn't be a problem, it's because of men for some reason, etc. The fact is, transgenderism is just not been talked about until now - it's not going to go anywhere though, it's not just in people's heads or a trendy phase.

Why now then?

It very much troubles me that much of the language around trans issues is virtually identical to the anti-gay rhetoric that we used to hear so frequently (and still hear in some circles). The worry about what to tell the wider family, the notion that living a quiet life is fine but being "in your face" is somehow unacceptable, the idea that it would all just go away if it weren't for the "agenda" that somehow seduces young people into a new lifestyle. Every single one of these concerns has been expressed about homosexuality, and they have been rightly discredited in much of society. Now these same objections are being applied to trans people.

It's certainly true that more people are aware of trans issues now, due to some recent high profile cases. But it is hardly a new concept. A dear friend's brother came out as trans, successfully transitioned, and now lives as a trans woman. That happened nearly 20 years ago, and the idea wasn't new then.

when boys who want to do the same, it must be for some unspoken sinister motivation.

I don't believe that of the boys/men themselves individually, but a lot of the language surrounding m->f transition is incredibly invasive and offensive to women, and comes off as being yet another way of men invading the female space and body, and bullying us into accepting it (or "risk" being labelled transphobic). This might not be the experience/motivation of individuals at all (and I would be stunned if it was), but the language from certain websites/transactivists DOES come off like that.

Why now? Well, the improved anonymity of the internet. A generation of young people growing up on Tumblr. A generation of parents more comfortable with the internet as a place to discuss these things. Caitlyn Jenner. A lot of things have come together at once, and it is confusing and overwhelming for young people who are genuinely struggling with their identities and feel like they can't legitimately discuss it outside their online circle, which might not be the most healthy place to unpick issues about the body (ana is a good example of this).

I'd just go along with it. As other people have said, David will need your support if she does want to transition. Otherwise, the more blase about it you are the more likely he is to grow out of it once its stopped being a 'thing' if it isn't really about transition.

Just be cool about it. It's a long hard road to transition and I can't imagine someone who isn't quite sure won't get bored or put off by that. Also, does it really matter if your DSD wants to be David and wear flamboyant clothes...

Except gay people don't need surgery and to take hormones to live " "authentically".

I would not worry about the younger kids, and how to explain it.

I find kids are generally very openminded about "otherness".

Conformity (or the rejection thereof) really only starts in the teenage years.

It seems incredibly ironic that some posters on here seem to think girls might want to transition to 'escape the patriarchy' but that when boys who want to do the same, it must be for some unspoken sinister motivation.

I haven't yet met a boy who wanted to transition to male. Seems rather pointless, doesn't it?

You seem to not know that we live in a patriarchy.

Men do not accept women as human. They also do not accept transmen as human.

Women, on the other hand, are required to treat men as superiors, and to welcome transwomen, who are male, into all female-only spaces.

Here is a helpful graphic on what gender is:

scumorama.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/gendercracker.png?w=600&h=272

There is also one with a tiny pink woman and a tiny blue man, but I couldn't find it. :(

It is currently trendy ...in my day it was being bisexual....which maybe at the most involved a girl snogging another girl - with an audience obviously (afaik they all grew up to be straight, married with 2 kids types...)
I would try and avoid making it an issue as much as possible - encourage them to get counselling -call them David if they wish ....and that's it - the more you go against it the more they will want to do it...
Of course I could be wrong and it could be a long standing issue they have only just found the courage to talk about - time will tell if that is indeed the case...
I actually feel really sorry for the current generation - they have so much information from the internet about all kinds of things -at a time when their brains are rewiring ...it was bad enough when I was a teen now it must be a whole load more confusing.
My DD1 (14) is very into LGBT issues - she was very defensive of Katlyn (sp) Jenner - I said isn't it odd that they have become like a male idea of a perfect female rather than an average female...she now thinks they are causing problems for the trans community...
One of her friends has announced they are actually male and wants to be known as a male name....except they haven't approached the school or had any counselling so the teachers are still calling them their female name -but if their classmates do it is a terrible injustice etc. Another was 'devastated;' and 'heartbroken' because someone they had chatted to a couple of times in an online forum said they weren't interested in them 'like that'..oh and that makes DD's friend bisexual - as it was a girl they were chatting to...
DD1 started washing her hands when she felt upset -said it made her feel better - she has never shown a sign ever before of having OCD. I actually told her she didn't have it but if she carried on like that she would have- and it stopped. She also occasionally 'plays' at having an eating disorder...

Along with everything you do being filmed and placed on social media - I am so glad I am not a teen now!

(Although I know my lesbian friend who found it incredibly difficult to come out at age 20 probably would have had an easier time now ...so maybe not all a bad thing)

Just go along with it. It's probably just a phase. And if it isn't, then at least you have supported her.

What Waistcoat said.

What harm does it do if dsd wants to be David and wear flamboyant clothes? I know my parents dissaproved of the way I dressed when I was a teen back in the stone age 70s.