Not to accept that my DD is 'really a boy'?

[Scootering]

This is actually about my DSD, who is nearly 18.

Over the last few months she has told us she is 'trans' and wants us to call her 'David' (not this name exactly...).

Her father and I (and her mother) think this is crazy. She has always been perfectly happy as a girl, long hair and dresses, not remotely tomboyish. This has all happened since she has met a group of very 'out' gay men and I think she really wants to be like them. Her idea of 'being a boy' is to be (frankly) a raving queen (very camp) with flowery shirts and pink hair.

We have NOT started to refer to her as 'our son' or called her 'him' or 'David'. She says we are ruining her life and will never accept her.

We have said we will not do these things until she has been through proper counselling to discuss this. We paid for her to start this but she gave it up after the first session because she 'knows who she is' and 'doesn't need to discuss it'.

So we are now at a impasse. She says we are ruining her life. We are really not remotely convinced we should be acting like she's a boy.

Are we being unreasonable? Are we torturing her? I'd really be grateful for advice because we are finding it all really embarassing and difficult (particularly with elderly parents).

Of course you are free to talk about transgender topics, your own experiences, and your own personal opinions about them. But you're attributing negative personal attitudes to individuals that they don't necessarily have. They're talking about the concern they have over the effect media and peer pressure has on young people as a class, and the harm pandering to certain subjective beliefs does to women as a class. Going to bed now. I'm sure lots of people will reply to you in the morning.

I am not attributing any negative personal attitudes to individuals, I am actually referring to sentences and words, and terms which were used by individuals, which are harmful, and tackling those and giving an alternative view. (Reminder of terms: Transcult, raving queens etc) That is what debating is. I am attempting to give some positives and real-world examples that transgender people do positively exist. I also believe I have given lots and lots of evidence in support of that, and also approached the concept of the media in my previous post, the page behind this.

I had a feeling, that as soon as someone started speaking in a logical, informed and caring way, the topic would be derailed like this. Do not accuse me of attributing negative personal attitudes and attempt to paint me as something other than I am, because you expect people to not go back and reread the messages.

Some incredibly harmful opinions were put across that genuinely do drive young people to suicide. So please, do not play that card, and maybe actually address my responses, my supplied resources, and my points of view.

Jaylat you are perfectly entitled to discuss things and I do not think anyone has tried to shut you down at all. Please believe me that I have read a lot about this topic, met transgender people, watched those procedures you mentioned (or at least a little of it) and discussed this a lot with people who are gender critical and who are transgender. But you are totally right that as I am not myself transgender so I do not know how it feels.

I do hope I have not said anything offensive, I have not intended to do so. However, you have hoped that I and others do not have children, which seems pretty offensive but as I say, I bear no ill will.

Re I actually disagree that this topic is shut down maybe in the sense that you mean it? I often find it is shut down only when people start to positively discuss being transgender or the existence of it. Well I can tell you that I have seen this debate shut down a fair bit on some forums, but not on this one. Actually my experience is that most forums seem to be either 'pro' trans or 'anti' trans and if one expresses the 'opposite' position then one is shut down quite quickly. I have experienced this, honestly.

I have read much about the murder of trans women (often trans women of colour) in the USA and I am as appalled as anyone else is by this.

The only place where I have found that pro trans and gender critical views are expressed and not shut down is 'Discussing gender critical & gender identity' on Facebook.

Re The OP should be listening to their child, they shouldn't make hasty decisions on their child's behalf I am not sure that any hasty decisions have been made except for the child who wishes to express their new identity to the entire family via the Christmas card when they are not even able to answer to their new name when it is used.

If the Op's DSD really is trans she will decide herself and reveal it at some point, but at the moment the OP is trying to work out how she can relate to all this. Yes, anyone can identify as they chose, but they cannot force others to accept who they feel they are. It is complex. I am sure the OP has her DSD's best interests at heart and I am sure you can share things that will be useful.

These are my own thoughts and views, they are not fuelled by any hate at all and they are not about anyone specifically on here at all.

Must go to bed... Night all.

jaylat thank you for all of your posts I feel they are more helpful and positive for the OP and absolutely relevant to her current situation. I felt reading some of the posts upthread it was all doom and gloom and some people were talking as if the OP's child was about to have all sorts of operations etc. I felt the tone was quite negative and presumptuous towards trans people actually!
As you so eloquently pointed out jaylat, its a transition and the OP's child needs the time and space to explore and eventually come to a conclusion. In what way did you feel 'pity' for trans people vestalvirgin? Was it because they lived quietly and you felt for them because they didn't have the support- or for another reason? We can change this now and support people by giving them very the time and space they need and to challenge negative views.
Times have moved on now and people are progressing and able to live the lives they choose. You didn't hear about more cases in particular when you were younger because people felt threatened and alienated. Fortunately this does not have to be the case which is what I tried to explain to the OP and so has jaylat.
I also feel the use of the word 'transcult' is quite odd and vestalvirgin your use of it sounds rather confusing and damaging in whatever light you intend it. I urge anyone joining the discussion to read all of it. jaylat thanks again.

Jaylat. No one is trying to shut you down. I'm not playing any "card". I merely called it as I saw it. Get over yourself. You never know, you might learn something.

I hope that I never learn anything from you venusinscorpio. If I, and other young people were to learn from the types of views you present, the world would be a sad place. Oh wait.

venusinscorpio I have plenty of educated, smart, non-offensive and well-rounded role models in my life, straight, gay, trans, non-trans, parents, singletons, that I learn from, and I continuously learn, unfortunately it seems like you have stopped. (We can move onto personal comments now it seems.)

As expected, it doesn't seem like you have made any efforts to look at any of the information I provided or views I put across, and instead result to petty personal comments. So.. calling it as I see it.

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OP, your child is brave and wonderful. It is amazing they are questioning these things now rather than later, I genuinely hope that your family can work with this, and there are so many fabulous resources available to you, and to your child, as well as people out there happy to listen to you and to your child and be an ear to listen to. It is a credit to you also, that your child feels able to approach you and ask you these things. We have all heard of, and know of people who hide themselves for years and years from the ones they love, and that can never be healthy.

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Thank you AlbusPotter I felt the same way, I honestly felt that if I had been a confused trans kid, or parent of one and I saw those posts, that they would have been utterly useless and daunting, regardless of whatever opinion was trying to be presented. No real logical arguments, no good supportive resources, and more of a focus on strange things like cults over the actual well-being of the child in question.

Thanks for all the posts.

I am sorry but the cv waving has totally put me off some of the above posts.

I don't believe in a female or male brain. I think it's fucked up. I think society is broken regarding gender roles and fighting against that is inevitable and right - but not "becoming who you are". You already ARE who you are and coming to accept yourself is most important thing.

I apologise if anyone is offended by the expression "raving queen" buT half the time I've got a lounge full of camp boys trying on bras and DSD's old prom dresses and stealing my make up and frankly it's an expression I think it's pretty accurate.

(Just to clarify, they are not transwomen, they are just young gayer dressing in drag. For 'lols'. Which is fine with me. But it seems to me that this is what DSD isnaspiring to, which is somewhat ridiculous.)

Gayer=gay men!

I wish the media would give as much time to the young trans teens who were murdered or committed suicide in this year alone.

To be honest I've seen plenty of positive representations in the media of teens dealing with being trans.

In every case the families who are struggling in various ways are painted as the big bad guys. Always. The newspapers might print negative crap, but then the papers print negative crap about EVERYTHING. The trans debate is not special and singled out.

However television, is ruled by this political correctness which is neglecting a huge part of the issues. WHICH ARE NOT JUST ABOUT TRANS PEOPLE THEMSELVES.

The trouble is everyone close to someone transgender will struggle will it in someway. Even the most liberal. There is guilt for questioning. Guilt about whether you have caused it. Guilt for being the 'normal one'. And this can manifest itself in negative ways. There is no space for families to readjust either. Or how it can fuck up others in the family.

There needs to be a balanced picture of the reality. Shades of grey. Not shiny representations where the trans gendered person is the tortured saint. Its not true. Everyone makes mistakes, and it SHOULD NOT be ALL about the trans person as that is unhealthy and feeds the monster of it all being about self identity. It is also about having healthy relationships with other people. This is not possible when its all about not upsetting a trans person and if you do, then somehow you are a bad person.

No you are just someone who is human, trying to understand, worried for various reasons and having your own baggage from your own life experience.

We live in a world where we CO-EXIST. Yes we are full of prejudice as a society towards trans people, but the way to changing that is not to merely turn it on its head and erase the feelings of others either. You have to work TOGETHER to understand EACH OTHER. It is a two way thing.

I do think we are in a situation where we are trapped between transphobia on the one had and a ridiculous political correctness on the other. The trouble is that reality and acceptance lives in the bit in the middle and the two extremes are both unhealthy visions of the world that don't progress things for the benefit of ALL.

The current situation, only leads to a place of conflict. There isn't enough listening going on. I think we need to acknowledge that it is actually Ok to be worried, frightened, afraid, ignorant etc. Its how you act upon that and what your intentions are and where you go from that is important. This needs to be articulated in a manner which is constructive not divisive.

I do think there are unrealistic and unfair expectations that come from the trans community in expecting everyone to 'just accept it' as that does nothing to acknowledge that yes we do live in a society that is not perfect and many things are so deeply ingrained into our thinking we can not just switch them off, even if we want to.

And yes there are scientific experiences that show up unconscious prejudices that we are unaware of until really confronted with it. Prejudice is also not just restricted to the majority group. Minorities can also have their own prejudices which have their own impact on integration and tolerance.

No one is 'in the right' I'm afraid.

Italian, having had some very in depth discussions with trans people I know well, I'm not sure i agree with you that younger people transitioning have not felt the need to cover up their real identity by hiding behind very gender stereotypical choices. They tell me they learned from a very early age that their feelings were not expected in a person of their physical gender and were terrified of others finding out their secret.

So they consciously made choices which they saw as reinforcing their physical gender in a desperate attempt to hide the feelings they had inside.

Are you so sure that teenagers transitioning have not had the same feelings? After all, they have waited until teenage to declare their real feelings. All trans people I know say they had these feelings from their earliest years, that is still quite a few years of covering

When the people who have transitioned later in life there was no information available for them to help make sense of their feelings when they were teenagers, hence why they waited so long.

OnGoldenPond re Italian, having had some very in depth discussions with trans people I know well, I'm not sure i agree with you that younger people transitioning have not felt the need to cover up their real identity by hiding behind very gender stereotypical choices. They tell me they learned from a very early age that their feelings were not expected in a person of their physical gender and were terrified of others finding out their secret. - Yes I agree with you, I was thinking of 'some' trans people and I should have said that. Of course it is different for everyone and some will have felt able to express and some not.

But I also know someone who transitioned in their 50s and never considered themselves trans until their 50s. They had not been hiding it all their life. They were very open and would have told me lots more if there were more to tell, I feel sure, they were very much a 'sharer'. I think there is a narrative that people have always felt like this but I am not sure that is always the case, but we will never know.

Scootering I agree with you, I don't believe in a female or male brain.

If my brain is effected by hormones, which it is, it is because it is in a female body. And brains are very plastic and change a lot and develop as they are used.

RedToothBrush I also agree with you, I do think we are in a situation where we are trapped between transphobia on the one had and a ridiculous political correctness on the other.

When people have chosen to live as the opposite gender or to be 'gender-fluid', this is their choice. I know that people will say that there is no choice in this but the very fact there is a huge 'spectrum' of what it means to be trans means there will be choices to be made.

The OP is dealing with a child and she feels the child is being influenced by friends. In any other situation where a parent or step parent felt a child were being influenced into a position by peer pressure, even unintentional peer pressure, one would need to explore what is really in the best interests of the child. If this child long term really wants to wear certain clothes or be identified by a male name etc, I am sure the family will all come round to this, but in the meantime the child is looking to see if this is appropriate. I would be tempted to down play it all, not to force a confrontation.

To choose to 'live as' the opposite sex is a big thing. It doesn't necessarily mean surgery or hormones but for some it really does mean life-changing surgery, life-changing drugs and infertility. These are big issues. If this is the way an adult chooses to live, of course they are free to do this.

None of this means I bear any malice towards trans people.

Must go to work....

OP- why don't you show your DSD this thread? Some of the last few posts have been incredible and really insightful. I suspect that since she cannot remember her own chosen name that this is (I hate this term) "just a phase" and she will be on to the next thing in the new year.

I would also ask her to tell people (grandparents, family and friends) that she now wants to be known as he and Dave, and see how that goes down. You can support her and be by her side at all times, but if she does want to be a he, she can't be hiding behind you whilst you break the news to everyone. It has to come from her. Admittedly I am suggesting this as a test, which would be cruel if you believed DSD but I don't think you do, and actually i don't either.

Best of luck either way, I hope your DSD is happy in herself whether that be as a he or a she.

The points made up thread by RedToothBrush about coexisting and working together I agree with completely. Unfortunately the society we live in is geared around what's 'normal' and what is not- based on a set of old beliefs,outdated (pointless if you are atheist such as me- but I am respectful of those who choose to believe) religious laws and a history dominated with female oppression and homophobia. It makes me so sad to think of how gay people were criminalised and young mums who were considered evil and promiscuous for having a baby 'out of wedlock' then had their lives ruined because they did not fit in.
If you are normal then fabulous you fit in and all is well. If you are considered abnormal then the fight to fit in is all yours and yours alone- of course it becomes all about that person. How can it not? Both sides must be considered of course, but the trans person who may or may not reach a conclusion has a whole lot more going on- trust me. It's not that they don't care about you or what the family think- they do, so much to the point they feel brave enough to tell you.
I completely understand as I said earlier that it is difficult for many families to come to terms with change and they are absolutely not the bad people for feeling this way- but disregarding someone's feelings so completely whether or not they are certain about it all- is going to ruin someone's life. What does it take to just accept and support and move on for a while.
In this particular discussion which the OP asked AIBU? Then honestly for the points you asked us to consider- yes. But you are not unreasonable for caring or worrying about your child it's just finding the right way to do so. Personally I would back off for a while and go and find someone to talk to and to think about it all. I think your child would appreciate this- they may eventually do the same thing if they feel you are open minded and accepting rather than just pushing them to go and share all their deepest feelings with someone they don't know. It's not easy either way.

I do think its wise to be aware of the rate of suicides as it is so high. But you need to also not be held hostage by it.

I think that articulating feelings can be exceptionally hard to do face to face tbh as if someone reacts in an unexpected way it can blow your whole plan for a delicate discussion. Emotions get in the way. You forget important things you want or need to say.

I also think that the nature of the beast here is a heightened sensitivity on the part of the trans person as too often they gear themselves up for rejection, act out in a negative way and then this plays out in a self fulfilling way because other people struggle to cope with it. Its a vicious circle of rejection and expectation of rejection which is difficult to break. This is hard for other people to deal with.

Its about boundaries and limitations and knowing how far you can push things. And indeed how far you are prepared to be pushed. There are points where I do believe that certain behaviour may need to be challenged and you can't walk on egg shells constantly.

This is why I think that writing things down so that you can spend time doing that articulation without the other person interrupting part way through can be a useful exercise in starting an ongoing conversation about how to approach things. This means that communication is going on and you can convey important messages which might make the difference even if you can't talk to someone without getting into a screaming match.

Look for avenues that avoid conflict or at least reduce it.

I also think that actually sometimes families are not always the best people to provide the support required for this, as they are not equipped or experienced to deal with someone acting in this way. I think that being honest about this, and encouraging development of support networks elsewhere are crucial for everyone to stop families being held hostage by the threat of suicide. Whether its because its a trans issue or because their is another form of identity crisis / problem going on.

dawnofthedoggers I think most sides of the trans debate are evidenced here in this thread- no one threatened suicide it was written about in context. Other aspects I personally consider quite intense are also here- jumping straight into talk of altering healthy bodies, taking hormones etc is pretty scary for a parent to read and may never even be a possibility at all once the person has the opportunity to work through their feelings with support. I think that's where the discussion of suicide and depression comes in, it's very real for young people to feel let down if they do not feel listened to whatever the reason and a valid point. The main point is not that you allow your child to walk all over you otherwise they will kill themselves- its the fact that IF (and it is such a massive if here at the moment for the OP's child) the child in question is sure , the early days are important to feel supported. The point made about depression is very valid.

but disregarding someone's feelings so completely whether or not they are certain about it all- is going to ruin someone's life.

Just to out in some context here -- LOADS of gay people (myself included), were rejected by their parents, disowned, thrown out of the house. This is a bit more than disregarded feelings, and it didn't always ruin someones life! I'm not disregarding gay kids who attempt suicide, not at all, but (to quote Philip Larkin), 'they f*ck you up, your mum and dad'.

Plus to someone who was complaining about language -- Loads of screamin' queens that I know quite happily refer to themselves as such. But then I'm just an old-fashioned bulldyke................

somedyke fair point- I wasn't clear- I meant at the time some young people can feel their life is ruined. You are also older I guess and have lived through what I hope doesn't happen to the OP's child. I was trying to say it's an opportunity to approach the situation differently as your parents really don't have to mess you up.

I don't see how we are "disregarding her feelings completely" - we have told her we love her whatever, welcome and feed her friends, have supported her to access professional support and paid for counselling. The fact that SHE will not engage is HER responsibility surely?

I don't see how we can be accused of 'ruining her life' when she is the one refusing to access support. As previous posters have said, family are not exactly the best place to offer a non judgemental ear!

How will you feel OP if your child does agree to go to counselling and it's the same outcome? I am not saying you personally are disregarding your child's feelings all the time but that's how you came across in your original post, it seemed to be all about how you and your family feel. You want your child to go for counselling.You are embarrassed by your child's wishes so yes it's better for you also to talk to someone outside the family and better together but it may take your child a while to do this.

Your child clearly doesn't think they need the type of professional support you are offering at the moment they need your personal support which as you said you give and that's brilliant. In time they may come around to the idea or not want to be called David at all.