Not to accept that my DD is 'really a boy'?

[Scootering]

This is actually about my DSD, who is nearly 18.

Over the last few months she has told us she is 'trans' and wants us to call her 'David' (not this name exactly...).

Her father and I (and her mother) think this is crazy. She has always been perfectly happy as a girl, long hair and dresses, not remotely tomboyish. This has all happened since she has met a group of very 'out' gay men and I think she really wants to be like them. Her idea of 'being a boy' is to be (frankly) a raving queen (very camp) with flowery shirts and pink hair.

We have NOT started to refer to her as 'our son' or called her 'him' or 'David'. She says we are ruining her life and will never accept her.

We have said we will not do these things until she has been through proper counselling to discuss this. We paid for her to start this but she gave it up after the first session because she 'knows who she is' and 'doesn't need to discuss it'.

So we are now at a impasse. She says we are ruining her life. We are really not remotely convinced we should be acting like she's a boy.

Are we being unreasonable? Are we torturing her? I'd really be grateful for advice because we are finding it all really embarassing and difficult (particularly with elderly parents).

All the trans-cheerleaders on here may want to read this blog post by a de-transitioner: mariacatt.com/2015/12/07/unavoidable/

You are not doing women with dysphoria a favour by applauding their decision to take testosterone. There are no long-term studies on what testosterone does to a female body. Zero.

All you can do is support them. If you try to persuade them otherwise it will always stick in their head - regardless of if they are or are not trans

Is she a 'girl fag' (for want of a better term). It sounds more likely.

We are really not remotely convinced we should be acting like she's a boy.

This is the interesting bit isn't it. If you do not buy into the concept of gender, then how would it make any difference? What would it entail if you were to act like she's a boy? Just carry on as normal, with love and acceptance. Use her chosen name if that's what she wants. To refuse to do so would be counterproductive I think. I think it's up to her to explain to the grandparents however she sees fit, because she is practically an adult.

That's quite a scary read, VV. I had no idea that for a post-hysterectomy trans man, running out of testosterone is a medical emergency.

I also didn't realise that it was relatively easy to get T prescribed privately. I've been following Jack Monroe on Instagram (and I know we had some long threads about Jack coming out as not-quite-trans recently) and I gather Jack has started T, but posted a photo the other day wearing a dress. Which was surprising to me. Jack seems rather undecided on whether they are a committed trans man, and yet has already started hormones? I just think what the fuck are you doing?.

Clearly, there's something to be said for doing down the long and arduous NHS route. The ethics of giving hormones to anyone who can pay seems pretty murky to me.

A close reading of the article reveals male characteristics and female characteristics within the brain are referred to.

Yes, but the text of the article also implies that what is being referred to as female are traits where the peak lies in 'female', but not that there is no overlap. So, female-traits should more properly be read as 'traits which are more common in females as opposed to males'. Or what is described elsewhere as 'female-end' features, or 'male-end' features.

I personally like this quote:
The main point they’re making is that unlike genitalia, you can’t perfectly categorise brains as being either male or female, but I’m not sure anybody would have thought you could.

Also interesting:
an important observation by psychologist Janet Spence is often overlooked. This is that correlations between “masculine” traits are weak or non-existent; so too for “feminine” traits . Having one doesn’t imply you have another.
So, we could then possibly infer from this that a cluster of supposedly feminine traits doesn't necessary correlate with a female-end brain? Which would put the oft-repeated 'I must have a female brain because..' arguments out of the window.

If none of us have a female brain, just female reproductive systems, where does that leave gender now we are all mosaics in the head..............

I think Jack Monroe is just a woman who wants to have bigger muscles and no breasts that get in the way. (Haven't read that much about her, but that seems to be the gist of it)

Basically, she seems to want to be a woman who is not oppressed under patriarchy. (No breasts = no leering, big muscles= no street harrassment, stranger rape, etc.)

I can understand that wish, but don't think the side-effects of testosterone are worth it - feminism seems like a more sustainable way of achieving those goals.

VV that is a good link

All that stuff seems obvious to me

Thank you - lots of really useful posts

I think Jack Monroe is just a woman who wants to have bigger muscles and no breasts that get in the way. (Haven't read that much about her, but that seems to be the gist of it)

actually that sounds great, my flat chested yoga teacher demonstrated positions and i tried my hardest but my boobs really got in the way, but then so did my stomache and thighs in other positions.

It is possible that this is simply a phase. The trying on of identities and names could be part of ordinary teenage exploration of that all-important (to the teen) question: Who am I? With all the angst and overblown drama that many teens adore.

However, it could also be that the previous expressions of other names and/or identities were attempts to come to terms with being transgender. They may have been floated as test balloons, and the parents' reaction to having a gay daughter with X name may have allowed this teen to get closer to revealing a transgender identity.

Either option is entirely possible (as are many other potential explanations). But as I wrote above, I would support the new name and pronouns. If it turns out to be a phase, then it may seem like wasted effort. But it really would not be a waste of time or effort in the long run, since it would demonstrate the rock-bottom support that teens desperately want from their parents, even when they are behaving like drama llamas.

It isn't easy for most teenagers to cope with a stepfamily. I don't know how long the OP and her DH have been married, whether they have a good relationship with this teenager, where the other siblings come in the family (older, younger, half-siblings, step-siblings, etc.). But the family dynamics may be a part of this current declaration of transgender identity. Again, maybe not, I'm just wondering whether that might be part of the tension (if it is indeed a phase rather than something more enduring).

actually that sounds great, my flat chested yoga teacher demonstrated positions and i tried my hardest but my boobs really got in the way, but then so did my stomache and thighs in other positions.

Yeah, I think many women would like to have smaller breasts for purely practical reasons. Though if you remove the added incentive of avoiding (some of the) harrassment, surgery won't seem worth the risk.

there is a grand canyon between "sounds great" and "hey let's get them chopped off", well for me at least.

The fact that she has always been ultra girly is consistent with being trans as trans people will go to great lengths to fit into what they see as conventional behaviour and appearances of the gender their bodies are as they are usually desperate to hide their confused feelings and "fit in " with what they see as expected of them.

This is why so many trans women choose jobs which are seen as very masculine, such as the armed force.

It is very common for friends and family to be amazed when trans people come out to them as they are the "last people" they would have expected it of.

Not saying your DD us definitely trans just that being previously very girly doesn't make it unbelievable.

there's something to be said for doing down the long and arduous NHS route.

Advice I have found for UK FtM indicates that the time between the first gender identity clinic appointment and being approved for hormone therapy can be as little as six months in the NHS.

On the same website, we have the private route, where:

Dr Curtis will only treat those over the age of 21 (as of November 2015). He is generally happy to prescribe/recommend hormones on the second appointment reasonably quickly, providing you have had at least one counselling session

You do not need to have lived in role in order to be prescribed hormones,
WTF!

Another private clinic:
With GenderCare you will have no less than two appointments - one with Dr Lorimer, and one with Dr Seal - before being recommended for hormone treatment. These appointments can be scheduled for the same day where the clinicians’ calendars allow this.

The same day! Okay, £420 quid for the appointments and a few blood tests for your GP to sort our beforehand, but this is more a production line to T.

Some other doctors who require some real life experience, it can be a whole 3 months before they will prescribe hormones!

So, one day to six months, to be the reasonable minimum time required to obtain T. I suspect most people who haven't looked this up would have assumed it would be considerably longer. I certainly would have thought it was..............

I'd go along with it. I would call him Davido, or Dave ), and give lots of typically masculine presents for Christmas, as well as some loud shirts.

I AM surprised the NHS route is as quick as six months, SomeDyke.

Is the ease of getting T unique to trans men, I wonder? Is it as easy to get hormones as a trans woman?

This strikes me as the same as when i was 18. Back then the fashion was to be bisexual and much snogging of girls went on, usually in front of attentive boys in the night clubs.

Is the ease of getting T unique to trans men, I wonder? Is it as easy to get hormones as a trans woman?

Considering that testosterone has much more dangerous side effects than estrogen has, it should be just as easy for MtT individuals.

Of course, they could just not be as concerned about the health of women and therefore prescribe testosterone more easily.

@SideOrder: The sad thing is that transing is harmful to young people, while snogging girls is harmless fun.

I have said we will move forwards once she has had counselling (and I had originally suggested family counselling as I think teenage mental health issues are often rooted in family dynamics and that is the best place to resolve and support them). She is refusing this. We have paid for and literally walked her to the door of a highly experience counsellor who deals with these issues. She refuses to engage with this process - I suspect because she knows that this is not really an authentic situation.

So I think overall while we want to support her we will not be accepting her 'as our son' until she takes some responsibility for managing this in a more mature way. We have told her that we love her whoever she is, we will support her to seek appropriate help and support - but we will not change our worldview overnight just because she insists on it.

Well done. You are completely right to suspect what you suspect and to try to go the route of family therapy and exploring MH issues, imo.

I think you should stop playing along with the name changing.

The problem with saying gender doesn't matter and playing along with it because it doesn't matter [MajesticWhine], is that it clearly does matter to her, which shows she has misunderstood something fundamental about gender as opposed to biology/sex, and this needs to be corrected.

I agree with you, SideOrder. You are nobody unless you are trans now.

Of course, they could just not be as concerned about the health of women and therefore prescribe testosterone more easily.

That's sort of what I was wondering. That there's misogyny at work here - like it's somehow more understandable that a woman would want testosterone, so it's given out easily, compared with a man wanting oestrogen. Not saying that's the reality of course, just thinking aloud.

I wonder how many transgender individuals regret their decisions or change their minds before or after starting hormone therapy etc?

I'm learning a lot on this thread and am shocked at how little I know about it.

I wonder how many transgender individuals regret their decisions or change their minds before or after starting hormone therapy etc?

FtT? A lot of them. Some blogs are mentioned here: mariacatt.com/2015/11/12/friend-love/

This blogger also mentions the realization that she became dependent on the mercy of others, and that those others expected quite a lot of submission in return for their mercy. (What with the life-long dependance on medication)

The other names couldn't possibly have been him testing the waters and trying out a new identity, oh no.

The angst seems to be all yours OP. If he's in a phase it'll pass, entirely supported by his family. If he's not then he'll figure out where to go from here, entirely supported by his family.

There's an awful lot of 'I' in your feelings on David...I'd refuse counselling with a bull in a china shop like you too. I think you're the kind of person who prides themselves on their liberalism in the abstract but when faced with the reality find you believe - and behave - very differently.

This isn't about you - let him do what he's gotta do and just support him. One way or the other he'll come out the other side, it just depends on whether his relationship with you is intact or not.

There's also a blog/site called redress alert (sorry don't have link), with some heart rending articles from ftm trans people who regret transitioning.

I think the whole concept of trans is fundamentally regressive. Instead of breaking down gender stereotypes it reinforces them and relies on them.