Not to accept that my DD is 'really a boy'?

[Scootering]

This is actually about my DSD, who is nearly 18.

Over the last few months she has told us she is 'trans' and wants us to call her 'David' (not this name exactly...).

Her father and I (and her mother) think this is crazy. She has always been perfectly happy as a girl, long hair and dresses, not remotely tomboyish. This has all happened since she has met a group of very 'out' gay men and I think she really wants to be like them. Her idea of 'being a boy' is to be (frankly) a raving queen (very camp) with flowery shirts and pink hair.

We have NOT started to refer to her as 'our son' or called her 'him' or 'David'. She says we are ruining her life and will never accept her.

We have said we will not do these things until she has been through proper counselling to discuss this. We paid for her to start this but she gave it up after the first session because she 'knows who she is' and 'doesn't need to discuss it'.

So we are now at a impasse. She says we are ruining her life. We are really not remotely convinced we should be acting like she's a boy.

Are we being unreasonable? Are we torturing her? I'd really be grateful for advice because we are finding it all really embarassing and difficult (particularly with elderly parents).

Thank you for all the posts which I haven't read in their entirity.

I know that I am in the minority. But despite working with trans groups for years I don't think that this situation is authentic.

The difference between being trans and being gay is that if she was gay (she says she is sometimes - I really don't give a toss) my DSD is not asking me to validate her world-view every time anyone addresses her / speaks to her / refers to her. If she was gay and I hated it then I could just chose to ignore it. She would not 'correct' me at every turn. The difference would also be that anyone can be gay without having to spend their life on modern medication and having surgery that costs thousands of pounds and may mean that they are no longer living in the healthy, fertile body that they were born with.

I profoundly disagree with her world view. I don't think that there is a 'male brain' that you can be born with, any more than you can be born with male intestines or a male pancreas! Your gender is your sexual characteristics - and that does not define you in any way other than in your role in the breeding process. I profoundly believe this and this is what I have taught my children.

Yes I care what the family think - just as if she was espousing racist views (and yes I think it is comparable). It is not a 'non-issue' - she now wants to sign the family Christmas cards from 'David' - do you really think that won't need any explanation??

I have said we will move forwards once she has had counselling (and I had originally suggested family counselling as I think teenage mental health issues are often rooted in family dynamics and that is the best place to resolve and support them). She is refusing this. We have paid for and literally walked her to the door of a highly experience counsellor who deals with these issues. She refuses to engage with this process - I suspect because she knows that this is not really an authentic situation.

So I think overall while we want to support her we will not be accepting her 'as our son' until she takes some responsibility for managing this in a more mature way. We have told her that we love her whoever she is, we will support her to seek appropriate help and support - but we will not change our worldview overnight just because she insists on it.

You sound very reasonable Scootering. I hope your dd gets through this and finds some peace of mind, whatever she decides to do. You are right to question it, and would be failing in your duty as a parent if you didn't, imo

Scootering I would read the posts by RedToothbrush first. I think they are the most helpful and they clearly come from experience.
I'm a bit confused that you say you think gender is the same as biological sex - and you've worked in the area. It's not my area but my understanding was that gender is a social construct and not the same thing as biology. Anyway - the posts by the person above are really useful IMO.

Thanks peas. Sorry, I don't think gender is really anything other than social constructs - I just don't believe you can 'feel' male. How you are feeling is just ... how you are feeling.

Many people identify as trans and don't have surgery, I wouldn't necessarily worry about that at this stage. I do sympathise with the Christmas card dilemma and everyone saying "who the hell is David?" but I think refusing to call them by the name they want (even if you do think it's a phase) seems a little mean. It's only a name, and if they do change their mind back again it's no big deal.

That makes sense to me - and is what I thought you meant in your OP. Good luck separating the wheat from the chaff in your thread.

Without wanting to drip-feed, she has already changed her name twice this year (to gender-neutral alternatives) and we have gone along with it.

This is now a blatant twenty-stone builder's name which is more grating.

Also, she never bloody answers when we use her 'new' names!!! She doesn't look up from her phone unless we use her 'birth name'!! :)

This is now a blatant twenty-stone builder's name which is more grating.

OP, maybe this isn't very PC of me but there is a funny side, the way you are so riled by "Dave", and her demanding a new name and then forgetting she's called it. Let yourself laugh about it and be a bit blase and "whatevs" (sorry!). It being such a big deal for you is probably what she wants.

We had a cat called Dave.

Not getting into all the arguments but just from dealing with a teenager point of view - I think this really is a pick your battles thing. I really wouldn't make a big deal about it - would call them David ...and see what happens... (If they were booked in for surgery next week I would be more concerned)

I didn't have the best relationship with my parents (long story) they got a lot of things wrong - but I will give my mum credit for something...
One day I was going out at about 16 ...I had the sides of my head shaved (I had also taken a pair of scissors to my hair and cut random chunks out -sadly most of the time you couldn't tell ), I had my hair randomly dyed with black ink and food colouring, back combed and gelled/hair sprayed up, face full of slap - lots of black eyeliner, black lipstick, red eyeshadow, (obviously) mainly black clothes but with a purple nylon striped semi seethrough man's shirt (you could stripes of black bra). I was different, I was alternative, I was shocking...I was....

I walked downstairs in my finery, ready and spoiling for a fight and all my mum said was- 'Oh you look really nice'
(NICE! NICE! the worst word she could have used....I felt like going back up and putting a floral frock on - anything rather than NICE )
I guess that could have back fired and I could have gone more extreme to try and shock ...but actually bar tattoos not much more I could have done...
We then did have the fight about where I was going etc...but they could put all their effort into trying to control that (which was more of a danger to me) rather than something as unimportant as what I was wearing...
(That was 30+yrs ago - and writing that I am muttering NICE under my breath ...although I find it funny now )

"This is now a blatant twenty-stone builder's name which is more grating."

Unless your surname is Beckham?

That is a massive drip feed!

That sounds fair scootering she cant demand anything without compromise she has to be responsible for her decisions imo

Apologies as I don't think it is a MASSIVE drip-feed as the gender-neutral names were more nick-names and she wasn't insisting on a change of pronoun.

Love that she forgets her new name Dave Dave David Emma what

Overall I think you'd be best off just humouring her. It may be serious or maybe not, but you don't lose much by just going along with it and keeping the peace.

But one thing I don't get is that the OP repeatedly says that 'gender is 'not a thing', 'gender is crap', etc. But then she seems to be taking her child's experimenting with gender very seriously.

If gender is so unimportant, what does it matter how your (adult, almost) child wants to be called, dresses, etc?

As another gender critical feminist, I imagine OP is not overly concerned by the clothes or names that her dad is choosing; but the angst that accompanies this kind of identity crisis. The feeling that her child is missing the point entirely. And the possibility of hormones and surgery in the future

OP

i would feel a complete failure if any of my kids wanted to trans, if i hadn't taught them that their biological sex didn't have to affect how they chose to live their lives in anyway (baring obvious physical issues).

So i can only offer you pats on the back of support and if you like them.

but if this person forgets their new name i would use it all the more, and shout it in their ear when on the phone, but i can be petty.

Hormones & surgery are not a given though shortcut I do wish folks would realise it's a long old haul to get to that point, (in the UK anyway) & it's a good thing it is.
Allowing someone to express themselves by dressing a different way & calling themselves a different name is only a small thing but can really help them feel more like themselves, while they explore the issues surrounding these feelings.

All the medics we have seen have been brutally honest about treatments, side effects ,outcomes etc always with counselling for ages first and if the person decides to stop at any point along the way then as long as they are in a good place & happy that's fine.

The reason teens trans suicides rate are so high is because of the lack of support from families and rejection from people calling it a phase.

Amongst the trans teens who are supported , counselled and allowed to work things out a high proportion do not transition, great ! The ones who do with the right support & counselling become very stable, well rounded individuals, with succesful relationships , families and careers.
The important thing is to help them feel listened to, and yes they can be arsey & angry with parents, teens often are, but to dismiss their feelings is incredibly hurtful & damaging long term .

The fact that she is forgetting her chosen name shows she isn't taking this seriously

OP, I used to work in the NHS service which deals with this kind of thing. And they do know when somebody is not genuinely transgender. They have stringent qualifying for treatments in place and it is often turned down. When I worked there it was most often refused as it was not genuine transgenderism, but part of a pattern of mental illness often associated with delusions. I'm not saying transgenderism is a mental illness, but sometimes people with other mental illnesses ask for sex changes which are not driven by transgenderism, but by an actual illness and that is totally separate from transgenderism.

From talking to my friend's who are still in the service they are now facing a new problem, mainly with teenagers and young people. For some transgenderism is trendy, and a fashion choice which is subversive and can excite parental disapproval, in much the same way as people of our generation might have got a piercing or a tattoo. And again, the NHS professionals really do know.

From the people who I know who work in this service, they are finding it somewhat frustrating as they have limited resources and waiting lists and it's diverting from genuine cases. They tend to be identified and weeded out and referred onto more appropriate services such as CAMHS (although I believe the door is always left open).

In fact, I think if she isn't serious the fastest way to shake her out of it is probably to let her start making moves towards the process, because when she realises how serious it is she may well demur.

Button I would agree with you on that point!

OP I wish you the best of luck in dealing with this situation with your daughter. There has recently been a huge surge in young women/girls IDing as trans so you're not alone. I would be very wary of any therapists who immediately refer to your daughter as your 'son' or 'he' as if they know her better than you do. I'd also stay away from trans 'support' groups, they will only reinforce a trans identity.

As parents and family members you have a right to your own knowledge. Everyone around her will be telling her she is trans, don't be afraid to be the voice of question, she needs that too. You can support her in the way she chooses to express herself right now without pretending to believe that she really is a boy. The advice I'd give to all family members is don't make too big a deal of it either way, although that won't be easy in the face of all the reinforcement she'll get everywhere else. But also don't be afraid to give her hard facts and information.

4thWaveNow is an excellent site for both info and support for parents, please do have a look - this post about the author's own daughter might be very reassuring for you: 4thwavenow.com/2015/12/04/parents-keep-listening-to-your-gut-not-the-gender-therapist/

I wish you and your daughter the very best.

Yes, I realise that for. Which is why I said, the possibility of hormones and surgery

I'd be most worried about my child's mental health, if they announced they were trans.

The mental health that lead them to that in the first place. And mental health implications, going forward as a trans person

I'd definitely want to keep them away from the screaming lunatic trans activists on the internet

But this child is an adult, so love is all you can do

Great post from RedToothBrush ^