Not to accept that my DD is 'really a boy'?

[Scootering]

This is actually about my DSD, who is nearly 18.

Over the last few months she has told us she is 'trans' and wants us to call her 'David' (not this name exactly...).

Her father and I (and her mother) think this is crazy. She has always been perfectly happy as a girl, long hair and dresses, not remotely tomboyish. This has all happened since she has met a group of very 'out' gay men and I think she really wants to be like them. Her idea of 'being a boy' is to be (frankly) a raving queen (very camp) with flowery shirts and pink hair.

We have NOT started to refer to her as 'our son' or called her 'him' or 'David'. She says we are ruining her life and will never accept her.

We have said we will not do these things until she has been through proper counselling to discuss this. We paid for her to start this but she gave it up after the first session because she 'knows who she is' and 'doesn't need to discuss it'.

So we are now at a impasse. She says we are ruining her life. We are really not remotely convinced we should be acting like she's a boy.

Are we being unreasonable? Are we torturing her? I'd really be grateful for advice because we are finding it all really embarassing and difficult (particularly with elderly parents).

As regards the hormones data, although on an FtM UK website, the figures were not specifically for FtM as far as I could see. The six month figure was from the FIRST appointment at a GIC, and I don't know how long you have to wait for that, given the NHS and funding. It seems to be considerably easier to get hormones than I thought.

Also, I would suspect that it is possibly easier for a female (who is either naturally flat-chested, or binding) to make a better presentation as male, than it is for a male trying to present as female. Just that I know many butch dykes who frequently get mistaken for chaps, despite not being trans and not trying to present as male. I don't know if that means it is easier for FtM to get on T, than it is for MtF? Just speculating........

I must admit, the formerly straight women transitioning to gay men scenario is something I came across briefly many years ago, but it seems to have become more visible recently. Although I suspect gay men are not particularly welcoming to the idea..........

ftm trans people who regret transitioning

I don't think is strictly true about the regret. It is, as I understand it, written by FtM who may or may not be detransitioning, but being reconciled with being female. Not necessarily regreting the route they took to try and deal with their dysphoria.

But I agree that it is an illuminating and humbling read. These are voices that are seldom heard.

I must admit, the formerly straight women transitioning to gay men scenario is something I came across briefly many years ago, but it seems to have become more visible recently. Although I suspect gay men are not particularly welcoming to the idea.........

Maybe the gay men don't have to deal with the idea of formerly straight women wanting to date them.

Apparently, taking T can change sexual orientation - at least this one woman to whose blog I linked seems to have become straight. She was a lesbian, and when she told her body it was male, apparently it decided that she will now be gay and attracted to males.

Another reason why I think the whole trans-cult is worrying - it increasingly seems like any other "cure" for homosexuality.

Although that is more with regard to FtT. There seem to be two different dynamics to be going on - on one hand, butch lesbians are being bullied encouraged to transition to male, on the other, privileged heterosexual men seek to insert themselves into female spaces.

Apparently a few gay men have noticed a trend of transmen wanting to date them, although it's not as common as the other way round. And no, it doesn't go down well. At all. Gay men tend to like men, especially one specific part.
This is something that doesn't seem to be adressed (and something I would be adressing if it was one of my kids). If you transition you are probably reducing your pool of potential partners, because most people do not want to date transgendered individuals.

Trans cult, Vestal? Did you mean something specific or all trans people?
For balance, it's worth saying there are many, many transmen out there who are very happy and stable post-transition (not saying your child necessarily is trans OP but it's obviously worth stating for anyone who doesn't have friends who are trans and is feeling concerned about some of the stories upthread).

If you transition you are probably reducing your pool of potential partners, because most people do not want to date transgendered individuals.

So true noeffingidea. Sex is such a MASSIVE part of relationships and crap sex or lack of sex is a huge proble for people with 'normal' bodies.

One of my best friends is a MtF and although she transitioned nearly 20 years ago and is happy, she hasn't had an orgas since. She really misses sex and intimacy, but just doesn't feel it can be part of her life any more. It's really sad.

OnGoldenPond re This is why so many trans women choose jobs which are seen as very masculine, such as the armed force.

I think you are describing a particular type of trans woman who transitions late, often having had a very masculine role, possibly having been married and having fathered children and continues to fancy women. This is sometimes described as 'Autogynephilia'. Not all trans women will have this pattern. Trans kids sometimes identify young and never fit into the 'stereotype' of the sex they are born into. Not fitting into the 'stereotype' of the sex one is born into does not mean they are trans but some will be.

My Mum explained this to me when I was about 10, when a family friend went through the long process of gender reassignment. I think she said something like (fake names obviously) 'Josh is going to be called Sarah from now on. He wants to be a girl'. My reply was something like 'oh ok'. No big deal. Perhaps she should have said 'Josh was born into a boy's body so has grown up as a boy, but he's actually a girl inside so has chosen a girl's name and we'll call her that from now on', because 'he wants to be a girl' wasn't technically correct. But I suppose it made it more simple for me to understand and there was time for questions.

I don't see that your children's particular understanding of gender will make this harder. Even if you've made a massive effort to minimise gender stereotyping it's highly likely that your younger children will identify as a specific gender, even though they don't feel restricted to do things normally associated with their gender. Perhaps your lack of gender stereotyping will help them to understand that gender is not black and white.

Either way you should respect David's wishes, support him to decide for himself whether this is a phase or not.

YABU, and raving queen? what sort of terminology is that to use?

Trans cult, Vestal? confused Did you mean something specific or all trans people?

I mean the specific phenomenon that seemingly has started somewhen in the last couple of years.

When I was a child, you never heard much about transwomen. They had their surgeries, I suppose, and lived quiet lives. I feel that back then, the only transwomen were men who genuinely felt that they should have female sex organs, and endeavoured to change their bodies accordingly - a condition which, I think, is about as rare as the one where people think one body part of the other is not really part of them and want amputations.

I pitied those transwomen. (Transmen were not a thing, back then. Never heard of one.)

Nowadays, though, there is this huge movement, people are denying biological facts, penises are considered female sex organs, children are given hormones that mess with their health, men get into women's prisons and women's locker rooms and so on and so forth, protections that women fought long and hard for, sometimes even created, are broken down because excluding males from anything is now "transphobic".
Even writing that trans"women" have male bodies is now "transphobic" and punishable by burning at the stake.

That's what I mean by transcult. It's a cult which denies reality.

I have no problem with transpeople who accept that they are not, and never will be, their identified sex, and that they have no right to use the spaces exclusive to that sex.
However, that sort of transpeople (who don't deny reality) are apparently now "transphobic" too. It is madness.

Scootering I actually think that it may be worth calling your daughter David, or maybe she would agree to Davey? I am not sure I would do it often, maybe enough to humour her. I am not sure I would use he or him. I would not sign the family card with 'David'. If 'David' wants to say hello from 'David' to all the family she could just as well send those notes out herself. I'd be tempted to go with 'From all the Scootering crew' or some such.

People mentioning that surgery or hormones are not easily come by may be right, I don't know, but I do think it is interesting that some people do still change their minds.

EG... "Matthew is now embracing life as a man again, after feeling the restrictions on acting feminine too stifling"

Daily Mail story about reverse sex change

And this interview (from USA) is very sad.

vimeo.com/91587811

I am not sure this is at all relevant to the OP and her DSD at this stage but I totally understand the worries.

VestalVirgin the term 'transexual' used to be used and I am sure you are right it was a man feeling that his body was wrong, his penis didn't belong etc. It was not about 'gender' although 'gender' is how we/people generally/some people generally recognise the things we in our own culture and time attribute to people's sex, things aside from the biology of course.

Things get confused because some people, of sensitive sensibilities, use 'gender' when they mean 'sex'.

Now if people feel they want to wear certain clothes, play with certain toys (kids, I mean) or whatever, it is fine, it doesn't mean you change sex, it doesn't mean you need to change sex. But sadly it is taken to mean you may not be 'fully' the sex you were born! So very quickly 'gender' has come to mean your identity and in some way if you identify with things attributed to the opposite sex you are presumed to be the opposite sex! How is that progress. For women or for men!

The Op's DSD, sadly, seems to be buying into this idea which is why I can totally understand why the OP would find this very difficult. I have always told my dd that girls can do anything. If girls feel the need to be boys to do anything rather than expanding what a girl can be or do, it actually works the other way, it limits what a girl can do, because it means if you do things that boys do, you may in some way be perceived as a boy - either by others, or in this case, by the girl herself.

It's taken me a while to think about what I want to say to you OP but here goes...
You are in my opinion (I don't meant to be harsh- just honest) being very unreasonable in so many ways towards your adult child/ step child. You have the opportunity to give them the shelter they may really really need right now. All of your points in your post are based around you and your family and how you all feel.
Part of a transition is to try out the transitional feelings and have a safe place to do so. I doubt your child feels very safe right now. It makes no difference that this person used to love being a girl (how on earth can you be so sure what has been going on in their head??) or that they are friends with 'raving queens' all of your post seems to highlight to me that you need to drop some of your own prejudice and take a step back. If your child feels like a man- they may be attracted to men- they may therefore feel gay and feel comfortable in this group of friends.
This may of course not be the case and they may just enjoy being with their friends. It's this easy by the way to use 'they' not 'he or 'she' i slipped up so many times but my lovely child appreciated my efforts anyway and still does. I treasure our relationship as does their dad and grandparents, we don't ever want them to feel they need to fit in or be dictated to how they live over a matter such as this.
Be as matter of fact of you can about the whole possible transition- and at this stage it really is just a possible outcome- some people feel somewhere in the middle ( non binary) and never fully transition. Could you sit and have a heart to heart with your child and give them the chance to tell you how they feel without the pressure to please everyone else?
Young people and children deserve far more credit than you give them about understanding it all- most just take it all in their stride as my two younger DD's have done with regard to their siblings possible transition. We use their own chosen name, the older generation are doing their best too. Most importantly our adult child is happy and you know what? So are we. I believe all of this you spoke about in your post doesn't need to become such an issue and you should try to respect David's thoughts and feelings.
Whilst we have found our situation to be just another part of our lives and a new normal I can understand to a degree how you feel as we are not all the same but please put yourself in their shoes and try not to judge or blame. It's really not a bad thing but it is very very easy to ruin someone's life on the basis that they do not choose to live it in the way you decide.

My daughter went through a similar phase last year, and it did turn out to be a phase. We didn't make a big deal out of it or give the issue much attention, although we did have several discussions about gender. The whole thing just fizzled out as she lost interest.

There was, and still is, no doubt in my mind that she was trying to be edgy and provoke reactions from us and this was her main motivation for claiming to be trans. There was also a strong element of attention seeking involved, aswell as wanting to belong to a group, and be in some way special and different.

I think that by keeping our responses fairly low key we made it easier for her to drop it when she was ready to, because she didn't have to have another big discussion with us to tell us she'd changed her mind.

I signed up, just to join this discussion.

I want to issue a warning about some of the posters on here.

There are some well known harmful websites on the internet which use offensive and damaging language towards transgender people. Including several which actually 'out' young trans children younger than 15 who have youtube, or facebook, and they publicly share their information and previous gender identity/sex. There are also some well-known bloggers who run those sites and like to join forums such as these when trans topics pop up, so that they can share misinformation, and horrible opinions written with offensive language/terms and also use untruthful stereotypes about transgender people.

There appear to be a large group of people who believe that transgender people are harmful to the LGB community, to women, and also to tackling the gender binary.

I want to say now, Trans people are part of the LGB community too, trans people can also play with gender and what that is, in fact, they are the fore-runners often in choosing a non-binary identity, finally, many transmen (FTM = female to male) do not deny their female experiences and life pre-transition and recognize it is a part of their complex identity. It saddens me to see harmful rhetoric like the above that implies transmen leave behind the female community, are going through a phase, will change their minds... etc. If YOU are NOT transgender, then please listen to those who are and maybe learn from them.

There is no 'trans cult'. There are only people in this world with complex identities, just like yours, who do not fit some of the assigned boxes, or who want to play with gender. This does not encroach on your life.

Identity is beautiful, becoming yourself is beautiful, having loving caring parents willing to listen to you, and give you the chance to grow, is beautiful.

I don't think I need to share the suicide rates in trans teens, or the murder rates, or those harmful websites that I mentioned. But, please. Don't take some of the opinions expressed here as true. The only voice you should be listening to, is your child's voice.

My parents accepted me, and do you know what? I am the most confident now that I have ever been in my entire life. I have set up a sporting organisation across the world in China, I am the first in my family to have attended university, I have a loving incredible family with two younger sisters 3 and 9 that would put most adults to shame with their openness and understanding of the different types of people in this world, I have wonderful friendship groups, a successful job, and played a sport recently in the British Championships.
Guess what, I am 23. This is what loving your child creates OP.

P.S For those of you on this forum, you know who you are, I want to add, that most of the time, transphobia is misogyny in disguise. You like to act as though you are protecting the female identity, and that trans people subvert the fight eventually for equality amongst genders. But what you don't realise, is that when you stereotype and share simply incorrect facts about transmen, you are actually erasing their stories up to their transition, you are erasing their experiences that they lived through in their female bodies. When you do the same towards transwomen, you reject their femaleness (which in itself is absurd as you are then stereotyping what it is to be female) and you also ignore the fact that they will now experience not only the stigma and prejudice that non-trans women go through day to day, but also the stigma and prejudice that people like you apply to them and also non-transgender men too, who view them as weak, why? Because they transition to female. At the end of the day, who loses out? Women. Whatever you want to define that as. Women lose out as usual, and you aid that with your transphobic dialogue.

P.S.S if you reply to this, copy full parts, do not pick and choose parts out of context.

Also sorry, but any 'factual' link to the Daily Mail should instantly raise alarm bells.

Actually, I am really struggling now to leave this thread.

I cannot believe, in this age, with everything that is happening in our world, that we are still coming up with phrases like 'trans cult' and 'raving queens'. With the science that supports transgender people, with the informative articles and essays that have been released by both trans and non-trans people, why are things like the above being written, there are caring compassionate people out their in the world taking the time to explain these topics clearly to you, but you still share articles like the one from the Daily Mail?

I hope that some of you above realise, that it is your kind of messages of 'advice' that drive young people to suicide. I am actually disheartened if you do have children of your own vestalvirgin and italiangreyhound etc.

'out there'
Spelling edit, ironic as my degree is in Linguistics.

With the science that supports transgender people,

Which science? There is no science that supports the notion that men can become women or the other way round.

No one questions that some people may feel genuinely unhappy with the body they were born with, so if that is the "science that supports transgender people" you mean, it is quite pointless to mention it.

I am too tired to reply to your whole post now, but really, work on your reading comprehension. I don't hate girls who want to be boys. Quite the opposite. I want to protect them from making decisions that will not make them happier, but ruin their healthy bodies.

Read the blog I linked to.

Transcult is misogyny in disguise.

I refuse to read a blog with no factual backing, your very use of language 'girls who want to be boys' is incorrect and dismissive of people outside of your personal universe. They do not 'want' to be, they 'are' in their minds, and they are entitled to choose their own identity.

It comes to what you define as men becoming women, are you referring to sex organ changes, are you referring to a change in mental state, are you referring to gender presentation changes, to gender role reversals?

Please state what you define as 'men becoming women'
Also, please define what is male and female to you, in terms of sex and gender.

Also, I certainly hope you aren't 'protecting' anyone with your types of views, you would be doing quite the opposite.

I am saying right here and right now, as a 'trans' person, whatever you want to define that as, I find you terrifying, and harmful and I wouldn't want you making any decisions that effect my happy 'healthy body'.

You show no true understanding of what being transgender is, and how it is different for various people, you seem to hold an old-fashioned stereotypical view, and sadly, I really don't think I can learn anything from you on this topic. Willing to listen to sense and informed logic, as well as well supported evidence.

Here are articles and examples of evidence supplied by respectable and trustworthy sources, I can post more if wanted.

transascity.org/the-transgender-brain/
Transgender History ISBN: 978-1-58005-224-5,
Science, Activism, and Transgender Rights - Deborah Rudacille
Assuming a Body: Transgender and Rhetorics of Materiality
978-0-231-14958-7
TransForming Gender: Transgender Practices of Identity, Intimacy and Care 978-1-86134-916-3
The Health of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender People: Building a Foundation for Better Understanding
Institute of Medicine (U.S.). National Academies Press. ISBN: 978-0-309-21061-4

I researched the topic of being transgender in Tibet, some of the first research being done as part of my degree. I can tell you now, with data to support, that transgender people and concepts also exist in Tibet. Albeit with different wording, and you are probably someone who only takes western science and medicine seriously, but sex-reversal and concepts such as that exist in Eastern medicine too.

I also lectured on the topics of gender identity and feminism in Beijing, China. I can tell you right now, that the concepts exist there, and acceptance too. Plus, I featured as a panelist on an LGBT board for the US embassy in Beijing, speaking on these exact topics, on the parenting of trans kids, and also being trans in the work place.

Basically Vestalvirgin I have listened to many points of view, I have researched new ideas, I have entered into various communities and taken part in debates and conversations, I have gotten out from behind my computer screen and actually engaged with real people, and real lives, and real identities. You really do not sound like you have.

I have also struggled with the types of opinions you put across and at one point in time I almost took them seriously, and do you know what? It was like sending a gay to a christian conversion camp, it didn't work. I became unhappy, I became uncertain of myself, I became confused. I am now content with the body I was born with, but I don't identify with it, it doesn't match how innately feel, you can pull me apart, analyse, debate me, or 'protect' me but something just doesn't suit. I can be feminine, I can be masculine, I play with presentation of gender and I switch up gender roles, but my body doesn't fit me.

For some people, their born with body fits them, but they still want opposite pronouns and one type of masculine or feminine gender presentation. Some people don't suit the body they were born with and want to transition but want to keep the original gender presentation that went with their original sex , and finally, some people are not happy with their body they were born with, and also want their gender roles and gender presentation to follow with the transition. Do you see? People are dynamic, people are different. There is not one scary transcult of exactly the same type of transpeople out there waiting to convert non-trans people.

Brilliant post AliveAlone.

AlbusPotter you sound a very kind and caring mum. It may be that your child was rather more serious about this than the OP's. If the child is not taking it seriously then it does make one wonder if the parents should too.

I do kind of feel down playing it all may be best.

I actually don't dislike the name David, it certainly doesn't have nay negative connotations.

Jaylat re I am actually disheartened if you do have children of your own vestalvirgin and italiangreyhound etc.

• Please do not be down heartened for me, I have children I love and care for. And I know trans people and care about them too, I am not at all hateful of them!

-I shared the link to the daily mail to show that even when people go through a transition they may change their mind, because it is sometimes suggested that if people go through the proper channel there will be no mistakes and only truly trans people will transition. If this article was not true then I will happily ask for the link to be removed. But Matthew Attonley is on the internet in a number of places talking about gender reassignment, maybe it was wrong to link to the Daily Mail as many people do not like it (I usually don't). He was talking about it on 'Good Morning' and is on their site.

-I am deeply concerned that some young people will be swept along by the tide of the popularity of being transgender and may be carried into this when it is not true for them. The other link was to a lesbian who began to transition to a man and then changed her mind, and suffered a lot because of this and felt unsupported by the trans community.

-This does not mean I am judging other people at all. I know a trans man, he seems very happy, that is his business and I do not want make anyone's lives unhappy.

• It is always hard when people disagree and I bear you no animosity at all, and I am sorry if you are offended by anything I have said. But I am not at all misogynistic; I believe in freedom for all adult people to do as they please with their own bodies and for young and impressionable people to be given all information and advice. I am very alarmed that debate on this topic is often shut down. I do not want debates to be shut down when people talk about these issues, in a cool and rational way.

Just because things ave been successful for you (for which I am glad) does not mean that that is always the case. It is a complex topic. Ultimately the OP's DSD will do what is right for her in the future, I hope and the OP is seeking advice. That is what I am here for, not to score points or to offend anyone.

Jaylat. You're just a tad presumptuous about the lives and backgrounds of people on this thread, doncha think?

"I am deeply concerned that some young people will be swept along by the tide of the popularity of being transgender"

This is what worries me Italiangreyhound. This type of sentence was said when gay people started to come out, and were spoken about.

We have seen transgender figures swept into the media limelight recently, and the media does what it does best, giving often an inaccurate portrayal of life.
I wish the media would give as much time to the young trans teens who were murdered or committed suicide in this year alone.

Just because something becomes more spoken about, doesn't make it a thing that is popular and people get 'swept into'. There seems to be this scary idea forced around, that suddenly its cool to be trans, and young people will transition and change their bodies and then realise they were wrong.

The decision to transition is lengthy and dictated by doctors and long processes of assessment. Many transgender people choose not to go through the sex change process.

I can also tell you now, as a young person, that the type of media young people see regarding transpeople isn't what older generations see on TV or magazines, in fact a lot of it is on Facebook, Tumblr, Twitter, Instagram. What do they see? Diverse groups of trans people, happy and also sometimes struggling (I see them struggling with unaccepting parents half the time and the question of what is gender really?) they see reports of the before mentioned suicides and murders as that makes it onto the back channels of the internet more than the mainstream media, and they also probably research and see the scary looking operations.

Your experience of the transgender world, or transgender identity, is not going to be the same as someone experiencing it, and sure as not, the same as a young person experiencing it who uses the internet now in a way that also surpasses me.

I agree with some of your points such as it being a complex case, I agree people can change their minds (as with anything) and I actually disagree that this topic is shut down maybe in the sense that you mean it? I often find it is shut down only when people start to positively discuss being transgender or the existence of it.

I will say what I said at the start:
The OP should be listening to their child, they shouldn't make hasty decisions on their child's behalf, and if anything, why not applaud the playing around of gender, and identity. If it leads to transitions of a medical kind, well that is going to take a few years and lot of deciding and commitment on the kids behalf, and if it doesn't? You have a healthy child, making their own decisions about their own presentation and identity.

Nobody here has been presumptuous about the lives of transgender people then?

You have people who are not transgender, talking about transgender people. Is that not presumptuous?

Am I not allowed now, as a transgender person to talk about transgender topics, and make a few presumptions of my own?