New nursery expects all potential pupils be potty trained, even the 2 year olds.

[FundraisingPTABitch]

That's it really. I'm new to this part of town, and so is this nursery.

When I enquired with the admin about this policy, they said every potential pupil must be potty trained.

AIBU to think this nursery can just fuck off? I will potty train my little child when both the child and I are both ready.

Ludicrous. Irresponsible! Elitist!

If todays parents had to soak/wash/dry terry towelling nappies and plastic pants all non SEN children would be out of nappies between 2 and 3. Most would be out nearer their second birthday and some (mainly little girls) would be in knickers between 18m and 2 years. There weren't constant wet clothes and carpets.......What would have been the point in that?

With my own six.

DD was out of nappies at 20 months. She used to insist a wet nappy was removed as soon as she wet it. I didn't 'train' her she just didn't like wet terry on her bum.

Four of the boys were dry between 2 and 2.5. I chose a long weekend/week with nice sunny weather and we spent most of the days in the garden. They ran around nappy free with the potty close by. The younger ones watched the older ones when they went for a wee so maybe that helped too. It did mean we were pretty much house bound for a few days but to be nappy free it was worth. I am well aware that many families with two working parents would find this very difficult. Having said that I was working when my 2 youngest were trained. We just did it over a bank holiday weekend. They were born in the mid 90s so were in disposables. I could have easily delayed the process but chose not to.

Our other DS was 3.5 before he was dry in the day and I did have to delay him starting playgroup because of this. It's the way it was in the 80s. There was little proper day care in more rural areas. Just a playgroup run by mums in the church hall. There were barely any toilet facilities ( One ladies, one gents and a few potties). There were no nurseries even attached to schools outside of the county town.

Modern nappies are brilliant and DC don't feel wet. DGC are coming out of nappies later than their parents. The hassle of nappies is less than the hassle of toilet training. When I was a young mum nappies were a pita and we wanted to be free of the washing and drying. There is still no reason why non SEN children are not out of nappies before starting proper school. There will still be occasional accidents of course.

I have a 13 month old and really can't imagine how I would get him out of nappies! But 50% of children are?

Does that mean just dangling them over a toilet/ the gutter?

I have no idea how people potty trained all children by two in the past, but what a horrible, harsh world it must have been for mums and children then with all these hard and fast rules about what you had to do and when, not to mention all the corporal punishment around. I'm so glad my children are growing up now. Imagine all the adults growing up with toilet issues and thinking there was something wrong with them from the start, having been disciplined for stupid things like not being able to use the potty correctly when they weren't even ready for that in their physical and mental development.

I tried sitting mine on the potty from 12 months old, not forcing them but making it fun before bathtimes. DD1 was dry in the day at 2.5 but not at night until 3.5, DD2 was dry in the day and at night at the same time at just gone 3, but then had a couple of weeks of withholding poo issues...they both went to pre-school and childminder and neither had a problem with this and were very helpful.

Nurseries should be shut down if they can't accommodate 2 year olds in nappies. It's a serious discrimination issue as far as I'm concerned. Life is a marathon, not a sprint.

I definitely think people train much much later than is needed in most cases. The main problem is most wait until 2 years before every sitting them On toilet and expect them to know what to do. What has been done historically was from around 6 months people sat them on toilet/ potty at every nappy change and before bath etc to give them a chance. So by 18 months they had a year of practice building up gradually and are dry. Both mine were completely dry between 15-18 months using this method.

How did you do it Art? Just sat them on the toilet after changing them?

Oh yes, lazy parenting has been mentioned on this thread. Not to mention neglect!

How long for?

I absolutely believe that children used to be trained a lot younger. I have a reprinted Edwardian book about raising children and it says that "napkins can normally be dispensed with by the 12th month".

But the fact remains that some children are incapable of controlling their bladders at 2, 3 or 4, and this is not identified as a medical issue until the child is 4 or 5. A lot of them are developmentally normal in other ways with no evidence of SN. The law says nurseries cannot discriminate against these children by insisting on toilet trained children only, or in fact by only making an exception for children with "obvious SN". Every child should get the benefit of the doubt.

Around the world, over 50 percent of babies are trained to use the toilet before the age of 12 months, according to Barton D. Schmitt, MD, in "Contemporary Pediatrics."

More than half the population of the world don't have what we would recognise as modern hygiene facilities, nowhere near. A lot will be worried about their baby wandering around a cesspit or dying of diarrhoea, not whether it is caught in a nappy.

At 13 months you are just catching a wee or a poo. Often babies poo after eating. Old fashioned highchairs had a space to fit a potty in for that very purpose. Worth it if you had to scrape a terry nappy!

I think the difference is in the ability to know they need to go to the toilet or being conditioned to perform at certain times.

Many years ago I worked in a nursery attached to a hospital for staff . One of my charges was a 9 month old boy who's mother was a paediatrician,she came over 4 times a day to 'train'him. She would lie him on a nappy on his back, hold his knees bent up to his tummy and massage his tummy until he did a poo. He never pooed in his nappy. But he didn't know that he needed to poo, she just conditioned him to perform and so he did.

That is amongst the more extreme, but indicative of the time. Being toilet trained now means that the child knows, and is able, to go to the toilet when their body tells them to and not when they are dictated to by others.

My eldest child was bang on 2.5 when he was clean and dry both day and night. My youngest child, despite my years of experience and many frustrating hours in the bathroom was almost 8 before he actually recognised his body's cues that he needed the toilet!

I don't how I could have sat DD1 on a potty at 6 months, she didn't sit unaided until 8 months and she has no disabilities. She is 10 now and passed her eleven plus with flying colours recently- I only say that because whether they are trained at 12 months or five makes not a flying crap of difference in the long term!

Hear hear MrsDevere (oh a poem!)

partridge my experience of potty training at 2 wasn't harsh and horrible at all. There are no 'toilet issues' either. Very glad I had my children when I did, pre internet days.
(Agree with you about corporal punishment though. Definitely a change for the better).

Splendid - yes. At 6+ months we just sat them on toilet for say 3 mins before bath/ in the morning when nappy off. As the weeks went on gradually increased to at each change they sat on toilet. By around 10 months they did all poo on toilet and would crawl to bathroom door when they wanted us to put them on toilet inbetween. Ds1 was 15 months and ds2 18 months. It was great as ds2 was born when eldest was 15 months so meant only one in nappies at a time.
By 2 1/2-3 both mine were rather strong minded and I think would have been a nightmare to train as if they decided not to they wouldn't have done something. At least early it was before they learnt to debate!

Oh and we had a little toilet seat so they couldn't fall down as easy! A potty I find super gross as needs cleaning all the time and I wouldn't want a pissy pot in living room!

There is no need for younger parents to get stressed out about potty training with the modern nappies and nurseries willing to change them. But children are capable of being out of nappies earlier than most parents choose to do it. Nothing wrong with either way so long has younger mums and dad don't deny it is possible........And no corporal punishment was necessary either.

Also I know baby boomer age people brought up when childcare experts were saying you shouldn't show young children and babies too much affection, as it will only "spoil" them. This makes me very sad for them.

That's amazing Art. It honestly hadn't occurred to me to try.

Artandco, that was exactly the policy of the nursery I worked in in the 80. All children who could sit up unaided (so yes, some 6-8 months old) were put on a potty after each meal. Since at that age they eat a lot of meals they spend a lot of time sitting on their little thrones. It did potty train them early. I did not do it with my own, I preferred a more flexible day, being out and doing stuff rather than the rigidity of 6 time points for the potty.

I'm sure you could teach a fair few to read or rather decode words aged two, but what on earth for, they are not going to tackle Shakespeare any earlier. The last time anybody inquired when mine were potty trained was never.

But the vast majority of kids with no special needs are out of nappies by starting school there are not realms of deception aged kids starting school in nappies regardless of what the daily mail would have us believe in ds2 school half the school are in nappies but he goes to a special school its to be expected there in ds1 mainstream school one child ( in the whole 50, yrs of the school being open ) started school in nappies that was my friends son last yr and he has a diagnosis of global development delay its a typical mainstream school in a slightly less advantaged area than average and surely a typical five yr old would protest at being put in nappies

partridge well I'm a baby boomer and I guess my Mum didn't get the memo. .
Just going off what I read on here, there seems to be a concept of things just happening as 'luck', depending on the baby (eg.sleeping through at night). That wouldn't have happened as far as I was concerned. I was in control, not the baby. Of course one can be too rigid , there does need to be some flexibility but overall I think the parent should lead not the baby.
My youngest daughter is autistic, and if I had waited for her to show she was 'ready' to use the toilet she would probably still be in nappies at age 15.

Some more anecdata for the thread :)

DD was reliably clean by about 12 months (and only a few accidents before then). Reliably dry at nearly 3 (had to be out of nappies for nursery). If I'd put a bit more effort in I could have had her out of nappies earlier.

Reusable nappies changed as soon as wet, so DD never got used to sitting in a wet nappy.

This is obviously quite energy intensive, and requires you to be able to give a lot of attention to your child all the time.which is obviously not possible for all.

I do think nappy manufacturers have a lot to do with it - after all they have a vested interest in late potty training. I also suspect the ultra absorbance of the nappies doesn't help a a child doesn't learn to associate weeing with wet.